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Dual Quaternion support

ok for what i read on some places unreal used to support Dual Quaternion, but later it was dropped and longer support it, then i would love to have it back at last a option when importing a 3d model with joints to the user choose to "enable or not Dual Quaternion support in the import options screen like when you have things like morph target and others things, because the “current used way” while overal is fine when comes to "animate characters and “realism” Dual Quaternion can be much better and make things bender in a much more precise way and work much better when combined with corrective morphs, then since unreal is focusing more in movies and animations, having some "improviments on that front would be awesome, currently to have that option enabled i’m forced to use a "user made mod:
https://github.com/AlienRenders/Unre…/tree/4.24-mod

to enable usage of Dual Quaternion inside unreal and for what i read many others programs, like maya, blender does use it and only unreal not support it.
here a good discussion over it:
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discuss…ages-inside/p1

and here a very old video over it:

i would love to have it back (if unreal had it in the past), or be added in the future.

7 Likes

I’m supporting this request and want to add that Dual Quaternion Support is absolutely necessary for DAZ Characters to work correctly with UE4
as DAZ is state of the art regarding character creation, simulation and animation.

There is no way around it and no other tool out there that is as capable as DAZ3d when it comes to creating and animating realistic humans and it should be taken into consideration by Epic, esp. when even some DAZ plugins are being sold here at the marketplace, that absolutely rely on Dual Quaternion Support for a full experience.

The code is even there, but it’s only for version 4.24 and I don’t know how to implement it for 4.25. The problem is that the developer responsible for it doesn’t maintain it anymore…

https://github.com/AlienRenders/UnrealEngine/commit/a1b5c0a00fec07027f6628be5fd69635f549eabb

yeah would be cool to have it in unreal because it could improve a lot animations specially for “more realistic bends and human anatiomy, daz already have a good corrective morphs sytem but it only shine when combed with the dual quaternion” which improve a lot how things can bend and distort and is really weird the fact which unreal don’t have support for it when almost everyone else do have.

Maybe someone from Epic can take a look into this and tell us what to change in the code for it to work properly with UE 4.25:

https://github.com/AlienRenders/UnrealEngine/commit/a1b5c0a00fec07027f6628be5fd69635f549eabb#diff-a2fe950ded8cc3690e1761475580a5f0

Throwing my hat in this request. I’m currently fighting collapsing geometry in the upper arm.

I was having pinching at the shoulder joint with one bone.

I have updated my rig to use two upper arm bones, but even still the upper arm is still shrinking when there’s any twist between the shoulder and elbow joints.

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I’m the author of the DQ mod mentioned in the first post. I’d love to be able to add it and maintain it to UE4, but when I asked the UE team, they said the original kept getting out of date and it wasn’t worth keeping despite offering to maintain it. I do maintain my github mod. It’s just sometimes I’m busy or don’t know a new release is out. It’d be great if it could be included in UE4 proper.

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This will be really helpful for the movie making part of unreal indeed!

me too, would be really good if epic team would allow it to become a “pluging” to be placed in market like many others, rater than have to do this “rebuild way” everytime a new version is out.

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Can I add a +1 to this please. I’d love a dual quaternion skinning plugin.

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Unreal is best, but this is feature I’m kind of missing - LBS/DQS options while importing would be like total awesomeness.

First, thank you for maintaining DQ for UE. I totally agree this should be a standard option within UE.

I’ve compiled your mod version of UE and can confirm that DQ on Daz characters looks great:

However, there seems to be an issue with the facial joints:

I was hoping you might have an idea what’s going on here before I start deep diving into the issue myself.

~ Dave

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Try to turn on “skincache” in your mesh settings and it will go away.

Hi, are those AlienRenders github accounts still accessible? have linked my github with my epic account, but get error 404… Cheers

Try this link: https://github.com/AlienRenders/UnrealEngine/tree/4.26-mod

+1 for this. It’s not just for Daz characters. Blender uses DQ too(called Preserve Volume there). It would be much easier to import character animation from Blender if Unreal supports it.

yeah i do feel the laking of support in DQ being a issue specially now which part of unreal plans is turning unreal program in a full 3D all stuffs program going from modeling to texturing rigging and animate then make all the vfx and sfx and make the full game or movie/presentation all inside unreal, it really need this sort of support, it’s really annyoing unreal don’t giving support to it.

here to show a exemple of the same character inside daz using his DQ

as you can see she looks normal just ignore her legs "missing parts(lol) it deforms perfect without any issues now when i export her and she “looses” the DQ here the same pose inside unreal engine:

as you can see without the DQ now her pose looks a “lot weird” and using a little joke now she looks like a “she male” or a trans without “pass” the surgery, she gained something big under her legs, well going normal again it was just joking to point out the “wrong” as you can see her legs and “butt” deforms too much but her crouch not "follow it and still in the same “form” making it looks like a “extra” if you are able to proper add the DQ to the character like using the DQ mod this don’t happens and the character deform in the rigth way the same as in daz, this is why i would love to see DQ being added back to unreal, because not only daz but blender and even maya does have support for “DQ” but unreal seens to have go away from that, i would really love to see a option where in case a character is exported with DQ daz would or recognize it and auto apply or in his import window have a option to accept the “DQ” in the same way we have “morphs”, because making corrective morphs would be some annoying extra work which would not be good as if was just a proper DQ compatibility.

Dual Quaternion support helps…lots… but JCM’s (joint controlled morphs) gets the job done.

The problem like always is the lack of documentation as to how to export and make use of the required JCM’s. There was an example anim BP included with the plugin but not sure it’s still available but I see no reason the export from Daz would not improve over time.

There is also another option more recent than DQ skinning from Disney, called Optimized Centers of Rotation.

Real-time Skeletal Skinning with Optimized Centers of Rotation - YouTube

They demonstrate superior results vs DQS, at lower computational cost… Though of course having DQS is good when corrective morphs are based on fixing the artifacts of DQS.

It’s been out years.
It’s Disney Owned, so basically no one can do anything with it commercially (AS in release inside the engine, not as in Implement and releases a game that uses it).

Don’t get me wrong. It’s cool and it’s way, way better of an end result than any of the listed solutions we have available.

On the other hand, computation wise, not everyone runs 3090s so linear with joint morphs is probably still easier to handle… particularly for lower end stuff like mobile.

Hey, maybe Disney will make an engine at some point… PixarGaming :stuck_out_tongue: (still better than fortnite)