Any advice for games targeting 120hz on 9th-gen consoles?

Development Rendering
, ,
1

Hello,

I am not 100% certain about where to put this question but I will start here in the Rendering section since it does pertain to rendering.

I am currently working with Unreal Engine 5 and I plan on shipping my game to consoles at some point not long after launch. Launch is still quite a few years away, but because the frame budget is so tight (8.3ms), this does not seem like something that will be easy to optimize for at the end of the project, so I probably need to start now and not later.

I would like my game to ship with a native 120 FPS mode (by that, I mean a full 120 FPS and not 40 FPS in a 120hz container like I have seen on some games). I want the game to automatically switch between 60/120 FPS depending on whether the player’s display connection supports 60hz or 120hz output (which means I would need complete visual parity between both modes). My game is more about clear and crisp visuals with a high refresh rate, and I don’t care as much about slamming visual detail to ludicrous degrees (just enough that it doesn’t look horrid). Plus, having to design environments with a quality and performance toggle in mind just makes for a lot more work than I probably have the time for.

This is important to me because my game, while not a Souls-like, does have (almost) the level of controller-smashing difficulty you would expect from one. As such, it’s also important that this frame rate is stable. As in: If Digital Foundry were to do a review, then potential buyers should see the frame rate pinned at 120 FPS, all the time, zero stutters, even during intense fights, and assume that any negatives the hosts have to say about the frame rate is an automatic and instant failure (yes, I am this rigid about a stable frame rate, it is really that important to me and I think my players would very much appreciate it). I would like my players to be limited only by raw skill, not a shaky frame rate and input response.

I have one major reason for doing this with Unreal Engine 5: as a solo developer who’s more of a programmer and designer than a 3D artist, I rely very heavily on Megascans, Unreal Marketplace assets, and most importantly MetaHumans. I use assets from MHC for UE5.4 which obviously aren’t backwards-compatible with UE4 to my knowledge, and new marketplace assets can only ship to 5.1-5.4, so as much as I’d like to use UE4, it seems that option is off the table.

This puts me in an extremely strange no-mans-land of indie development I suppose, where I’m making an extremely oddly specific type of game (horror-themed fighting game hybrid with a high skill ceiling and extremely tight input response rivaling Sekrio) with an extremely oddly specific set of limitations (complete lack of an art team which would help give this game an identity and reduce the poly count while retaining visual flair) that will probably stop me from achieving this goal, but I’m continuing regardless. (I’m basically working with the resources of the average Steam store asset flip but with much higher aspirations to offer something actually interesting.)

Some things I’m going to experiment with myself:

  • Obviously visual fidelity has to take a tumble, that’s a given
  • I expect engine modifications to be in order, but to be honest I have no clue how bad it’ll get (probably very, given most 120hz games are on in-house engines)
  • In a previous post someone pointed me to Mass Entity as a data-oriented framework, unfortunately it doesn’t seem like it can fully replace Actors and Components (which are dependent on a copious amount of virtual dispatch and cache line inefficiencies that I expect won’t help the situation) but it seems nice for dense enemy crowds
  • I’ve been writing a custom engine on the side (entirely in plain C, no ++, with only OS and graphics APIs), since it seems most 120hz games are on custom engines, but given that I’m currently way over-dependent on Unreal content I don’t see it going very far right now (and I’d be lost once I get to the renderer because I’m no graphics programmer either)
  • Bite the bullet and study art (at least a little bit); I’m an engineering student, and drawing and modeling is hilariously foreign to me (I open Blender and even after hours of tutorials and research am completely and totally lost), but everything’s a skill and skills can be learned, right? (Right? Probably wrong but it’s worth a shot…)

Is there any other advice anyone might have for targeting 120 FPS on 9th-gen consoles, beyond the expected “turn down the settings” and “Lumen and Nanite are off the table” that would be good to know? Or is it simply not realistically possible and I need to investigate other options?

2

Look into overdraw, shadow caching, and draw calls.
In other words watch videos by Threat Interactive which atm are only 4 which isn’t too bad and they are packed with optimization info.

Another video is coming out soon regarding engine modifications for AA and other concepts available in UE.

3

You can’t use Unreal 4, but what about rolling back the direct x version ? As far as I know you can do that in unreal 5, and I also read that it can increase performance.

EDIT: somehow it slipped my mind → directx and “consoles”

4

let’s be honest. a console release is not as easy for an indie as you think. you need atleast a development unit to debug your game and pay sony and microsoft for the entry into their gaming shop “ecosystem”.

in general 120 fps on consoles is only achieved in performance mode (1080p) with very limited shaders and settings. you can google the list of games that support 120 fps, what that looks like and if it is truly stable 120. the latter is which you may not get. there is usually always fluctuations in fps. unless your game has graphics so low that it consistently produces more fps then 120 and is simply limited to 120 output.

the rest is just gamedev and artist work. make game and make it look good. how much of it you can do? you have to fill in some requirements for a “solo” project. i’ll not shatter your dreams tho. get some good 3d graphics done and you should be fine. you obviously have the coding background.

shameless self plug? wth. those videos don’t even help, really. just disguised rants about things wrong with unreal and other engines. get the source code, improve it, test it and create pull requests. can you do that? just posting videos for yourself won’t fix anything for the greater good.

i bet next video is gonna be another “how bad TAA is” rant. huh?

also… do you have a released console title? cause… you know console architecture is a lil different than pc. this is optimized down on the metal.

1 Like
5

shameless self plug?

Not ashamed becuase we produce gold meanwhile EPIC presenters are contradicting themselves just to damage control what we produced.

You gave absolutely NOTHING to OP. Just a bunch of sugarcoated rhetoric. We have industry veterans backing up Threat Interactive videos and they are MADE for people like OP. Did you even notice the OP is open to engine modification which is what I stated the next video will mention.

get the source code, improve it, test it and create pull requests. can you do that?

We are doing that but guess you can’t expand your tiktok attention to more than 3 secs?

User wants to target 120fps meanwhile UE5 doesn’t offer hardware tessellation which would help them improve visual quality without the exponential cost of NANITE related BS.

6

looking forward to it. show us a modded engine with some real improvements. hmmhmm.

and no… i’m not using those zoomer apps. you do?

also… why you suggest tesselation? this adds more compute load where it is not required if you manage assets and polygon counts well. i’m working on a 10-14 teraflop gpu (like the ps5 and x³box not accounting for half precision compute, i can’t do) and i know 120 fps at 1080p is not an easy feat. nanite is not even in this topic. you just ranting again, dude. ohh well…

sorry OP to clutter your thread, but KJ is a reocccuring special troll, that needs some attention.

7

Threat Interactive, been there since day one, it’s how I found out I’m not the only one craving higher refresh rates and better image clarity.

overdraw, shadow caching, and draw calls

Sounds like a good start. I’m also worried about the CPU side but I know your focus is more on the rendering side of things.

regarding engine modifications for AA

I’ve heard of deferred MSAA (or maybe I’m completely off my rocker) and want to look at implementing that.

in general 120 fps on consoles is only achieved in performance mode (1080p) with very limited shaders and settings. you can google the list of games that support 120 fps, what that looks like and if it is truly stable 120.

I’ll look at it. I’ve seen several reviews of 120hz games and they all seem pretty solid (save for Devil May Cry 5, that was something else). I wonder if dynamic resolution is in order or if as you said 1080p is the only realistic target, especially with UE5.

the rest is just gamedev and artist work. make game and make it look good. how much of it you can do? you have to fill in some requirements for a “solo” project.

I can bite the bullet if I have to. Stylized graphics would probably help claw back huge wins from the ability to simplify geometry.

I might add a poll asking about general interest in seeing better 120hz support with UE5.

I have a custom engine in the pipeline as a last resort if UE5 doesn’t work out and I’ve taken several concerns into account regarding quality, clarity, and performance. I can’t realistically meet every last demand but trust me, as a developer I’m listening on all fronts.

Worst-case scenario, I’m fine with targeting 60hz, but only with unmodified UE5. If I end up putting insane work into modifying the engine (or writing a new one entirely) I’m sticking to 120.

My current “no-go” list is 30 FPS, heavy motion blur, unstable frame rates, and excessive resolution upscaling. Is there anything else I should take into account?

1 Like
8

all those numbers. idgaf about tbh.

ngl. i’m an advocate of cinema and tech. i play casual shooter games in 48 fps. 72 fps if i have too. the 120 blaze went over my head. i did a lab test on how vsync works, back in the days. you can achieve visual smoothness at around those 72 to 75 Hz rates. the pi is the thing.

talk about all your framerates. but wavelenght of light is bound to the third and some decimals.

1 Like
9

I’ve heard of deferred MSAA (or maybe I’m completely off my rocker)

No it exist. You have plenty of people who say it’s impossible but it’s just harder to implement. I’m looking to funding to bring it to UE5 atm. But the engine modifications I mentioned are related to TAA.

I’m also worried about the CPU side but I know your focus is more on the rendering side of things.

The game I’m working on can afford a 16ms CPU budget but 120fps on the GPU side support is high priority for black frame insertion technology where 60fps allows flickering issues for many users. This also depends on your gameplay and how dynamic it is.

Is there anything else I should take into account?

Don’t force anything on users. Like film grain, DOF, vignetting, or even anti-aliasing since users may find ways to relieve aliasing using third party injector and expose resoltion scale on PC.

Thank you for wanting to promote more progressive game solutions.

1 Like
10

Thanks for the advice.

I think for the Unreal 5 build of my game, my new game plan is to accept 60hz as an option, but still optimize like I’m aiming for 120hz. Best case scenario is I have the headroom, worst case scenario I have more headroom than necessary and a more stable frame rate and input response.

Here’s what I’ve learned:

  • 120hz frequently requires a resolution and graphics compromise
  • Players don’t always enjoy lower-resolution experiences
  • Let the player decide how they want their game to look
    • Film grain, depth of field, vignetting and lens distortion, anti-aliasing, and resolution at minimum should be user-customizable (console and PC)
    • Highly-adjustable FPS limiter for players who want a specific target frame rate

Thanks everyone, I suppose this gets me where I need to be for now. It sucks that 120hz comes with so many compromises as it stands right now but I’ll make room for it in case I get the opportunity. Maybe PS5 Pro will have the push I need, who knows.

Edit: Epic forum really doesn’t allow for two solutions. I guess that makes sense though.

1 Like
11

On console you need to offer presets for resoltion and outputs, everything else can be optional.

Resolution/FPS is hardware specific and the main enhancements better PC parts offer hence the needed options.

Optimize for 60fps on DXR, 10tflop hardware(around 9th gen) with enough GPU headroom for frame gen calculations.

1 Like