Where is the "Tessellation" options in Ue5 Materials

Now this is an opinion, and I can value the importance of that, in that I would never try to convince you or anyone to buy anything you would not wish to.

But to that point, I can never convince anyone to view your product, buy your game, view your video, etc.

At some point people have their preference and there are different workflows employed at achieving results. So eliminating A because B exists is a faulty paradigm outright. Because, by this logic, we may as well pack it up and go home because there already are other game developers out there who have made games already, some huge businesses employing many people. Do we love that Qixel is free, sure! But might there be some who also want Texturing XYZ skin and iris maps? Sure. Both can be true at the same time, it’s not “You must choose one or the other, thus it is logical to pick the free one”…

Many professionals will wish to augment their free assets with paid-for tools. The teams who made Mandalorian using the free Unreal Engine also did pay for other show components and visual FX on their show. They did not use Unreal Engine and then to maintain a free-only paradigm use free costumes from Salvation Army, and hire free actors looking to get their foot in the door.

It is Nanite PLUS Tessellation and Displacement that would be mathematically superior to a professional.
Nanite MINUS Tessellation and Displacement is mathematically inferior to a professional.

First result is from TexturingXYZ themselves and they do not use a displacement map: Saurabh Jethani / Creating realistic skin in UE4 – Texturing.xyz

The TexturingXYZ maps were used on the sculpt to generate a high detail normal map. That is how they are pretty much always used, like I said.

This level of detail is only visible for extreme closeups, there literally are not enough pixels in your display to capture this kind of detail at a regular viewing distance. Even then it really isn’t typically necessary, Metahumans do not use tessellation and they hold up well even in closeups. Unless you’re doing a macro lens shot this is just a waste of memory and processing power.

I really don’t care about this at all, what I find annoying is that this was announced over a year ago and multiple times a week somebody furiously bumps these threads raging about how stupid Epic is while fighting tooth and nail to resist using any other alternative solution. Insisting they need tessellation right now for some purpose only addressed by tessellation but never elaborated on.

You’re not addressing Epic when you post here, you’re talking to the community. Short of convincing an engineer here to reimplement tessellation into UE5 there is nothing anyone can do except propose alternate ways of achieving what you want to do.

1 Like

With regards to Texturing XYZ, you are citing one example. So right there it is being used in Unreal Engine, whereas you had said previous you had never seen it used except in an “offline renderer” for still images. So great, you learned something already.

Second, with regards to the validity of displacement, you mean to tell us all that Texturing XYZ users who utilize specific displacement effects in other renderers and Unreal Engine users who would like to see Displacement return are just completely off base and wasting time because you feel that extreme closeups are not necessary? That point of view is very limited indeed.

Lastly, OP asked where is Tessellation in UE5, and users like me are stating we valued Tessellation and Displacement. Epic does moderate, view, and even reply to posts in threads. So if you feel annoyed and decide to comment that is your place to do so, but you will not convince anyone that you do not care about this at all then. This is a common theme, users saying “why bother, there is no hope”…

But the possibility of course does indeed exist. Epic will be watching, we should tell them what we would like - the reintroduction of Tessellation and Displacement.

1 Like

Deliberate misrepresentations of what I’m saying, how fun.

Perhaps you should join the change.org petition?

It appears hes averse to listening/learning.
We all tried.

At least I think causual byreaders will get the underlining message that tessellation on a skeletal mesh is literally bulls*it…

@Arkiras
Epic is an evil trash company who’s management should all be fired. Which Tencent probably will get to in due time. Not sorry you are sick of reading the truth :stuck_out_tongue:
Kinda sad people only realize this because of the lack of a tessellation option…

It’s not just Tessellation that was taken away, it was also Displacement. These two tools were eliminated with Nanite’s compute-ability in mind. However, it did not take into consideration moving player-character meshes. This now becomes a drawback with them being eliminated.

If you also have an interest, support said initiative to tell Epic we would like to have Displacement and Tessellation back in UE5 to augment our use of Nanite.

Epic is a great company who is constantly attempting to give us something new and innovative. But they do not walk in our shoes, and they cannot possibly foresee how every professional individual may be affected the engine’s development. So it is up to us to tell them when we see an area for improvement with our use of the engine.

Displacement is still there.

And epic removed the part where it was made clear they are nothing but a predatory company. Because remeber folks. Epic is also against free speech when it points out just how bad of a company they actually are!

Hi guys,

Beyond your last debate, anyway I think Tessellation (in materials) was a nice additional feature, adding, for example, the ability to make 3D relief changes in real-time and in runtime. Isn’t it an interesting additional feature to be kept? Even if only useful for fast testing purposes.

Regards!

2 Likes

Displacement is NOT in the material editor. Look at UE4 vs UE5, there was a section called “World Displacement” in UE4, it is removed in UE5.

You know, regarding the Professional using Tessellation an Displacement, anyone saying that Tessellation is a BS / noob / non-professional way of doing thing should be completely against Lumen’s introduction. Because Lumen is NOT actual RayTracing, it is not authentic light bounce rendering, but rather a screen-space-like synthesized real-time emulation of Global Illumination, in engine…
Well, such is the case with the runtime abilities of Tessellation and Displacement.

With Tessellation, as Minguel1900 points out, it allows for visual pre-viz of as smooth surface in place of needing to compute a higher-poly mesh. Pretty much every professional 3D art app has this function, except for UE5 which had it removed for the sake of Nanite.

With Dispalcement, as Arkiras pointed out, it allows you to synthesize at run time a simulation of mesh detail, in place of computing a higher poly HD mesh with the sculpted HD details. UE4 had this in-material, like pretty much every other professional 3D application. This allowed a professional to, for example, trial a HD-look in game before actually putting the paid time of actually sculpting it. But again, it was removed from the 3D editor for the sake of Nanite.

The ability to use Tessellation and Displacement from the Material Editor are directly related to the extended workflow efficiency of professionals using Unreal Engine, where their removal has reduced that efficiency.

One great thing Epic did with Lumen, was to allow it to be used WITH Raytracing. Many Epic marketing showcase closeup detail of meshes that are Ray Traced and Path Traced. Now, in engine, at runtime, hardware can struggle with an exclusive Raytraced computation. What Epic did to ease this for professionals was to introduce Lumen, a screen-space real time emulation of GI, that can be used together WITH Raytracing. This gives professionals the ability to not only play with certain looks pre-viz, but also to aid in compute time at runtime.

As such, there is precedent for Epic to allow Tessellation and Displacement in the material editor to be used with Nanite. The same “co-exist-paradigm” exists with Lumen and Raytracing, and such that benefits are gained professionally with (a) Lumen + Raytracing, we would see benefits with (b) Nanite + Tessellation & Displacement in-editor.

We can see it in terms of the following relationship (older : new):

Tessellation+Displacement : Nanite,
as is
Ray Tracing : Lumen

2 Likes

First of all. Real ray tracing is not 100% possible for videogames that have to run 120fps or more.

Second of all, lumen seems to be a really bad skirting copy of the cryengine volumetric ray tracing system. Which is great, looks great, performs great. Lumen being epic made is obviously the opposite of that in all aspects.

Thrid of all.
This is a discussion about the removal of procedural tessellation, not lumen. Not ray tracing.

Fourth of all.
Displacement may not be called displacement (really never was, but then again we also established you must be posting while drunk.) in the material editor, but to think it was removed means you know absoultely nothing about game design.

Fifth of all.
The issue with the removal of tessellation is Nanite, not Lumen.

The point you make about FPS is exactly related to the benefit Tessellation & Displacement give player character meshes. They reduce burden on the requirement imposed by a higher-poly mesh. Keep in mind that Nanite does not handle player-character meshes.

The Raytracing with Lumen example, again, is showing precedent for what would be allowing a past older paradigm to beneficially be used in conjunction with a new paradigm. In this case, Tessellation&Displacement(in material editor) the older, with Nanite the newer.

Epic can’t foresee the impact of every engine decision they make on its user base. I believe with good intention the idea was to guide a user base into using new paradigms which can best showcase the engine’s new abilities moving forward.

But with regards to the multitude of professional workflows (ie . pre-viz) in the community at large, there is also the marketplace, with many assets developed in past which were being optimized with Tessellation and Displacement as part of the material editor in UE4. With UE5, these assets now are without the ability to be visually optimized and look jagged alongside other newer detailed assets.

There are very good reasons being cited here for their return. The community would enjoy the benefit of such tools being used to augment great newer tools such as Lumen and Nanite.

1 Like

i did find this

which is in experimental not sure if this will solve tessellation missing but im looking into this as nanite isn’t ideal for some of my custom models that are on the splines (train track gravel etc) as that will literally eat the recourses

how would tessellation help with resource eating?
If you reach the same number of tris you can expect the same exact performance (or lack thereof).

Gravel can (Could in ue4) easily be faked with parallaxed textures.
Look into how to do carpets.

The rail / wood cross ties should be handled Ok anyway.
Look into the real thing, set up the same distances.
Each rail bar is a predetermined length.
Turns are also predetermined at a specific curve (mostly because if you exceed the curve tolerance you derail the train).

Ei: splines are a bad idea for a train rail… even if they are quicker than snapping parts together like a toy train.
If anything, you want a system that can generate a spline for the train to follow after the parts are snapped and built…

thanks for the input but we have a spline that generates the track and then merges them into one spline model (similar to how JWE fence system works) and then generates a separate spline for the train. I said that which was a poor example cause iv seen ppl using nanite for grass etc

In theory all ninite does is mesh streaming.
Meaning a mesh which is round and has 3m tris, can be displayed with 1.5m tris since about 50% of it is not always visible.

Further, it should recompute geometry so that only the amount needed for the distance at which the item is viewed is used (this what epic claims, regardless of how well they try to do this, this is never going to be true). So insted of a 50% only reduction, you may get up to a 90% reduction if you are further away from the item.

Obviously that isn’t going to help with meshes like grass, which are normally flat/2d panels, and need to be rendered as a whole (with proper LODs probably).

The heightfiled meshes would probably work better to do terrain(gravel) displacement at runtime.
It’s probably useless overhead compared to just creating a proper mesh and levaraging parallax materials.

Still don’t really see how procedural tessellation would help you. Or anyone for that matter when it comes to stuff like this.

If you have a very low base tris object, and you split all the tris vectors / generate 4 triangles out of every traingle you have more resolution.
Unless something modifies the position of the extra geometry the result is visually identical, just 4 times more expensive in tris count.

When you do modify the position of the geometry, you still won’t get the results you expect 9 out of 10 times:

Remeber that the approach is also procedural.
Say you have a mesh with 1mm x 1mm x 1mm tris. You just split that into 4 .05mm sided tris.
What good is that going to do / who’s ever going to see it?
No one = wasted computing power.
Had they done this right originally, you could set a minimum value for tessellation to have effect, but they didn’t do this right, and its always been iffy at best.

Where does it really hurt?
Landscapes.
Compute power with tessellation on is extremely heavy on LOD transitions (because the whole landscape system is trash, but that’s besides the point).

Where can it be useful?
On flat geometry to which you want to attempt to add some layer of shape - rock walls or similar.

Where is it useless?
Skeletal meshes. Spline meshes. Really anytning which is already intended to have its vertex altered by something in the engine. Be that at runtime or during the creating process.

Thats pretty much all there is to it, and why it was removed.
It serves no real purpose anymore, and was never done right in this sorry excuse of an engine, so it’s easier to yank it completely than it is to continue allowing users (we should say amateurs) to make bad uses of it.

And before anyone brings up snow trails.
No.
You make specific meshes with the right amount of tris for that. Similar to water. In a way that doesnt cause seams when you apply LOD reductions. Or you use the heightfiled mesh thing, which works ok in a pinch for stuff like snow.
(Neither approach is ideal, having an analytical mesh deform which uses more or less triangulation depending on angualr incidence would outperform any system in place this far).

yea, see what you mean tbh iv never used tessellation, and was told to look into it for our project. But i did tell them about the parallaxed textures you suggested as initially we were going to do it old school with the LODs. I’m curious tho after reading their statement about nanite how they want to support a nanite tessellation. tho will probably fail terribly

With regard to the original topic asking of Tessellation Material option in UE5, other users of UE4 Tessellation and Displacement, now using UE5, are bound to ask:

(1) Is there an in-material editor alternative for Tessellation smoothing on movable player character meshes in UE5?

(2) Is there an in-material editor alternative for Displacement on movable player character meshes in UE5?

In lieu of a later return of these tools by Epic into UE5, perhaps other users have currently established alternative solutions?

@daffrendo Bump Offset and Parallax Occlusion Mapping - UE4 Materials 101 - Episode 8 - YouTube ??

1 Like

Yeah, that’s POM: POM material - #527 by JenR

But also with lots of limitations, like plain Static Mesh ‘edges’.