UE4 Roadmap

[=;701985]
The thing is using any engine is an investment. In many ways its like buying a house and building a life around the location of that house. You can’t just pick up the codebase we invested to make for platform and move to another engine. And so early on many of us had to make a decision whether we would trust Epic and build our life in ecosystem. Whether we would invest thousands of dollars to get a project made that would earn a living for all of us (and in turn share 5% of the wealth we accumulated with Epic Games for giving us that platform).

In many ways our decision to settle into ecosystem now feels like its being taken for granted and that is hurtful. You might have the most qualified engineers in the industry working at Epic, but might as well have hired robots if they can’t begin to care about our needs and concerns, and talk to us with a sense of decency and duty. It’s a genuine betrayal of the trust we placed in platform when we first moved in. You can’t make people wait three years for a bugfix. You can’t tell people a roadmap is going up in early April and then go radio silent as that time comes and goes. It takes 10 minutes to throw up a forum post. In that time if we check out 's Twitter, he’s tweeting about playing Persona 5.

, how are you going to play Persona 5, when your team promised that we’d get an update for the roadmap in Early April? Don’t you see how screwed up that is? People are waiting with their livelihood in their hands and you’re busy playing Persona 5 instead of following through on your word. That doesn’t mean you’re listening. It might as well mean you’re not even here. You’re hurting us.

You know they take Saturday and Sunday off.

[=Themanwithideas;701994]
You know they take Saturday and Sunday off.

Was just gonna say that… it’s Sunday.

[=Themanwithideas;701994]
You know they take Saturday and Sunday off.

Not sure what my post has to do with Saturday or Sunday when I’m talking about weeks and months going by without proper updates. If can post 150 characters about Persona 5, there was no reason he couldn’t have posted a 150 character update on what was happening with the roadmap on the days that weren’t Saturday or Sunday.

[=;701985]
The thing is using any engine is an investment. In many ways its like buying a house and building a life around the location of that house. You can’t just pick up the codebase we invested to make for platform and move to another engine. And so early on many of us had to make a decision whether we would trust Epic and build our life in ecosystem. Whether we would invest thousands of dollars to get a project made that would earn a living for all of us (and in turn share 5% of the wealth we accumulated with Epic Games for giving us that platform).

In many ways our decision to settle into ecosystem now feels like its being taken for granted and that is hurtful. You might have the most qualified engineers in the industry working at Epic, but might as well have hired robots if they can’t begin to care about our needs and concerns, and talk to us with a sense of decency and duty. It’s a genuine betrayal of the trust we placed in platform when we first moved in. You can’t make people wait three years for a bugfix. You can’t tell people a roadmap is going up in early April and then go radio silent as that time comes and goes. It takes 10 minutes to throw up a forum post. In that time if we check out 's Twitter, he’s tweeting about playing Persona 5.

, how are you going to play Persona 5, when your team promised that we’d get an update for the roadmap in Early April? Don’t you see how screwed up that is? People are waiting with their livelihood in their hands and you’re busy playing Persona 5 instead of following through on your word. That doesn’t mean you’re listening. It might as well mean you’re not even here. You’re hurting us.

Yes i understand completly.
But you have to realise that the issues will not get any better in the next few years.
The oposite will happen.They will concentrate even more on VR stuff and communicate even less with the community when they realise that most in the community dont like their new direction.

I also dont think the narative of the “lazy/careless” epic developer fits it completly.
Yes some of them are very unwilling to even look at important bugs seriousely . I have met those ones too.
But most of the devs. seem willing to work hard.

I just think that there is a high possibility that there are just not enough developers on the team for the amount of work which needs to be done.
So that every dev has to split his/her atention on multiple problems a day and therefore just cant sit on one problem over several days or even weeks,which would be nessesary in order to solve it.

I think its maybe even the CEO of Epics decision to get the amount of money out of the engine with the minimum amount of people working on the engine and not so much the developers, even when very few of them seem to be really unwilling to work seriously, but not the most.

Yes unity has its kinks at the moment , but the will to create usefull features for the gamedevelopers and not slow development for the customer down when facebook comes around and waves with a lot of money,is higher in the unity team, i think. I wouldnt switch completly to unity at the moment but in 2 years if they manage to catch up then i would gladly.You should try to learn the unity engine in your freetime, because the Situation here at unreal will get worst and worst for the customer. You clearly saw that on the way the community manager reacted to the critic in post and the “remodeling” of the trello UE4 Roadmap with the goal of makeing the development process more intransparent and stop the complaining in the community about backloged features.

We all have seen in other companys which got “too” powerfull and felt that they dont “need” to apeal to their customers any more,but rather tought they could “dictate” their userbase what to spend their money and time on,without taking any feedback from them, like

-Apple
-Microsoft
-Adobe

[=;702036]
Not sure what my post has to do with Saturday or Sunday when I’m talking about weeks and months going by without proper updates. If can post 150 characters about Persona 5, there was no reason he couldn’t have posted a 150 character update on what was happening with the roadmap on the days that weren’t Saturday or Sunday.

Whether you like it or not, the guy has a 9 to 5 work schedule. He can play Persona 5 and post about it for any number of hours after work.

[=;702049]
Whether you like it or not, the guy has a 9 to 5 work schedule. He can play Persona 5 and post about it for any number of hours after work.

[=;702049]
is reading comprehension 101 and you seem to misunderstand his post on purpose.

He’s not saying shouldn’t have played games beyond the work hours, or that he should work more than the work hours. He’s saying there has been enough time during work hours, for a month, to post an update and let people know what’s happening. So when he doesn’t get that, and he sees “playing persona 5”, it hurts him, because it feels like making a promise and then failing to deliver seems to be of low importance at that point. So maybe making a forum post even beyond work hours, isn’t too much to expect.

Edit: isn’t really about , it’s about the whole communication from Epic whether it’s AnswerHub, Discord (abandoned), PMs, Emails, Forum threads, etc. There are a bunch of people complaining about how communication is getting worse in every of those channels.

[=emeraldcoast;702046]
Yes i understand completly.
But you have to realise that the issues will not get any better in the next few years.
The oposite will happen.They will concentrate even more on VR stuff and communicate even less with the community when they realise that most in the community dont like their new direction.

I also dont think the narative of the “lazy/careless” epic developer fits it completly.
Yes some of them are very unwilling to even look at important bugs seriousely . I have met those ones too.
But most of the devs. seem willing to work hard.

I just think that there is a high possibility that there are just not enough developers on the team for the amount of work which needs to be done.
So that every dev has to split his/her atention on multiple problems a day and therefore just cant sit on one problem over several days or even weeks,which would be nessesary in order to solve it.

I think its maybe even the CEO of Epics decision to get the amount of money out of the engine with the minimum amount of people working on the engine and not so much the developers, even when very few of them seem to be really unwilling to work seriously, but not the most.

Yes unity has its kinks at the moment , but the will to create usefull features for the gamedevelopers and not slow development for the customer down when facebook comes around and waves with a lot of money,is higher in the unity team, i think. I wouldnt switch completly to unity at the moment but in 2 years if they manage to catch up then i would gladly.You should try to learn the unity engine in your freetime, because the Situation here at unreal will get worst and worst for the customer. You clearly saw that on the way the community manager reacted to the critic in post and the “remodeling” of the trello UE4 Roadmap with the goal of makeing the development process more intransparent and stop the complaining in the community about backloged features.

We all have seen in other companys which got “too” powerfull and felt that they dont “need” to apeal to their customers any more,but rather tought they could “dictate” their userbase what to spend their money and time on,without taking any feedback from them, like

-Apple
-Microsoft
-Adobe

In good faith, I want to believe that by airing our complaints that we can figure out together. , , and the rest of the team can talk it out with us and we can work to make things better together. That’s why I’m writing all . I want to believe that they’ll be reasonable and hear us out and respond back in good faith and work with us.

[=;702049]
Whether you like it or not, the guy has a 9 to 5 work schedule. He can play Persona 5 and post about it for any number of hours after work.

Never said he couldn’t.

[=;702066]
He’s not saying shouldn’t have played games beyond the work hours, or that he should work more than the work hours. He’s saying there has been enough time during work hours, for a month, to post an update and let people know what’s happening. So when he doesn’t get that, and he sees “playing persona 5”, it hurts him, because it feels like making a promise and then failing to deliver seems to be of low importance at that point. So maybe making a forum post even beyond work hours, isn’t too much to expect.

Edit: isn’t really about , it’s about the whole communication from Epic whether it’s AnswerHub, Discord (abandoned), PMs, Emails, Forum threads, etc. There are a bunch of people complaining about how communication is getting worse in every of those channels.

If that was the intent of the message then it was poorly communicated. “He doesn’t answer but he tweets about Persona 5” implies that he’s doing one instead of the other, which is just factually false. the UE4 community manager and the dude playing Persona 5 at home in the afternoon are two separate people and it’s nonsensical to compare one to the other.

But at the end of the day, is discussing silly semantics. On one hand I do agree on a fundamental level that front-facing communication could use a boost, but on the other hand I jump over tothe Audio Engine thread and I see phenomenal communication across the board. So it’s not as bleak as some people here want to make it out to be. AnswerHub was always intended to be a community tool, not an “Epic fix for me” tool because first and foremost, most issues on AnswerHub are “Where’s the make MMORPG button”-tier questions. The only “real” issue I see in whole thing is the lack of acknowledgement and some really shoddy work by a few specific employees ().

[=;702118]
If that was the intent of the message then it was poorly communicated. “He doesn’t answer but he tweets about Persona 5” implies that he’s doing one instead of the other, which is just factually false. the UE4 community manager and the dude playing Persona 5 at home in the afternoon are two separate people and it’s nonsensical to compare one to the other.

But at the end of the day, is discussing silly semantics. On one hand I do agree on a fundamental level that front-facing communication could use a boost, but on the other hand I jump over tothe Audio Engine thread and I see phenomenal communication across the board. So it’s not as bleak as some people here want to make it out to be. AnswerHub was always intended to be a community tool, not an “Epic fix for me” tool because first and foremost, most issues on AnswerHub are “Where’s the make MMORPG button”-tier questions. The only “real” issue I see in whole thing is the lack of acknowledgement and some really shoddy work by a few specific employees ().

The idea is that while makes time to tweet about his Persona 5 activity, he didn’t make time on April 3rd-7th, April 10th-14th, to actively get back to use on what was happening with the Road Map or even why that was delayed. Those are weekdays. Those are days he was actively working. If he could make time to tweet about Persona 5 during his off-work activities, why couldn’t he generate the enthusiasm for his on-work activties during the 9-5 hours you alluded to earlier and give his 150 characters to inform us why the Road Map was delayed? It would have taken him no more than 60 seconds to type up those 150 characters to update us. It’s ludicrous.

, your professional life affects our personal life. Please emphathize with . Please. To move past , we need a simple and straightforward conversation as to why that won’t happen again and we need more input on how the roadmap looks moving forward. If you don’t have time to actually communicate properly as Community Manager, ask Epic to hire someone else so you can continue coding. Trust me, they have the money.

[=;702118]
AnswerHub was always intended to be a community tool, not an “Epic fix for me” tool because first and foremost, most issues on AnswerHub are “Where’s the make MMORPG button”-tier questions.

If real engine issues are buried in a sea of questions of basic usability, then AnswerHub is the wrong software for the job.
while I can agree that AnswerHub is intended to be a community tool, Epic staff always (with the usual canned replies on these forums) directs to report issues there which makes it the closest thing to official place to do it (aka. your only to see stuff getting fixed).
Now let’s face it, the community is not going to fix any engine bugs you encounter. So of course if the only place to get support (for real engine issues) is a community hub, it really feels like you’re left out in the cold as far as support goes.
Some voices will claim that there’s source access so you can fix any issues yourself. lack of support would be fine if the engine was distributed ‘as is’, but I find that a little hard to accept from a third party engine where you give them back 5% of your profits

[=;702142]
The idea is that while makes time to tweet about his Persona 5 activity, he didn’t make time on April 3rd-7th, April 10th-14th, to actively get back to use on what was happening with the Road Map or even why that was delayed. Those are weekdays. Those are days he was actively working. If he could make time to tweet about Persona 5 during his off-work activities, why couldn’t he generate the enthusiasm for his on-work activties during the 9-5 hours you alluded to earlier and give his 150 characters to inform us why the Road Map was delayed? It would have taken him no more than 60 seconds to type up those 150 characters to update us. It’s ludicrous.

, your professional life affects our personal life. Please emphathize with . Please. To move past , we need a simple and straightforward conversation as to why that won’t happen again and we need more input on how the roadmap looks moving forward. If you don’t have time to actually communicate properly as Community Manager, ask Epic to hire someone else so you can continue coding. Trust me, they have the money.

Which is broken that prohibits you from shipping a game? (professional life our personal life).

[=teak421;702147]
Which is broken that prohibits you from shipping a game? (professional life our personal life).

Just because something’s not broken, doesn’t mean it’s okay. Batman: Arkham Knight ran. It wasn’t broken. That didn’t stop people from throwing a **** storm because it was buggy to all-hell until Warner had to pull the game.

People will start hammering your game for performance issues. Ark and PU: Battleground in spite of their successes have an overwhelming number of negative reviews because issues like foliage costs are making running those games problematic for a lot of people.

[=;702186]
Just because something’s not broken, doesn’t mean it’s okay. Batman: Arkham Knight ran. It wasn’t broken. That didn’t stop people from throwing a **** storm because it was buggy to all-hell until Warner had to pull the game.

People will start hammering your game for performance issues. Ark and PU: Battleground in spite of their successes have an overwhelming number of negative reviews because issues like foliage costs are making running those games problematic for a lot of people.

I’m not talking about games that have already shipped… I am asking you about YOUR specific game / project. What is lacking that is preventing you from shipping a well performing game? Or, as you put it…affecting your personal life.

from Epic has posted a reply on the bug / backlog question…

See his reply here: Bugs: Back Logged vs Fixing - Feedback & Requests - Epic Developer Community Forums

[=teak421;702206]
I’m not talking about games that have already shipped… I am asking you about YOUR specific game / project. What is lacking that is preventing you from shipping a well performing game? Or, as you put it…affecting your personal life.

Virtual texturing and the foliage performance hit both affect my project as I’m also working on an open-world game. Both negatively impact performance and will be problematic for users upon release.

Also I shouldn’t need a personal stake in an to have a say in that being resolved. Trying to come at me from angle is ultimately a strawman attempt. All I’m doing is holding Epic to the same standards that customers would hold each and every single one of us if we released a buggy game. I’m honestly confused why you would think there’s anything wrong with that.

[=;702217]
Virtual texturing and the foliage performance hit both affect my project as I’m also working on an open-world game. Both negatively impact performance and will be problematic for users upon release.

Also I shouldn’t need a personal stake in an to have a say in that being resolved. Trying to come at me from angle is ultimately a strawman attempt. All I’m doing is holding Epic to the same standards that customers would hold each and every single one of us if we released a buggy game. I’m honestly confused why you would think there’s anything wrong with that.

Don’t be confused, because I wasn’t saying anything was right or wrong about what you are doing… I’m trying to understand how you personally have been affected since you have mentioned it several times. If the performance issues are problematic and it will cause problems for your users upon release, why are you using UE4? Aren’t you wasting your time on an engine that will not work for your specific project?

[=teak421;702241]
Why are you leaving feedback in the feedback forum Why don’t you go use another engine if you don’t like it?

Please read again:

[=;701985]
The thing is using any engine is an investment. In many ways its like buying a house and building a life around the location of that house. You can’t just pick up the codebase we invested to make for platform and move to another engine. And so early on many of us had to make a decision whether we would trust Epic and build our life in ecosystem. Whether we would invest thousands of dollars to get a project made that would earn a living for all of us (and in turn share 5% of the wealth we accumulated with Epic Games for giving us that platform).

I explained my technical issues with the engine. I put money into a team to develop my game. That’s my personal stake. When I release the game and it has performance issues thanks to the broken foliage system, and other aforementioned bugs, that impacts my sales and reviews of my game. Those will affect me PERSONALLY. The Epic staff still gets paid no matter what at the end of the day. As such, I see the responses other developers get, learn from their experiences, and I bring those concerns into forum so they’ll be addressed.

I don’t see a reason to get deeper into it when your line of questioning is getting dangerously close to “Love it or leave it”. But in an effort to educate, Feedback forums are intended to give Feedback, good or bad, in order to make things better for all of those involved. That’s what I’ve been doing, along with many others. So if your question to me is why am I wasting my time on Unreal, that question, by proxy has to be extended to who has made a post in forum, and by further association who has ever posted in AnswerHub. And that includes you! You’ve posted about bugs with Unreal as well, right? Aren’t you similarly wasting your time? Why don’t you go use another engine?

The reason is the hope that things get better. That’s why forum exists in the first place. To realize that hope.

[=teak421;702206]
I’m not talking about games that have already shipped… I am asking you about YOUR specific game / project. What is lacking that is preventing you from shipping a well performing game? Or, as you put it…affecting your personal life.

I have a solid 30 FPS regression when using grass tool for our game. The was targeted for 4.16 until last night. It’s targeted for 4.17 now. And who knows if it will be backlogged like most others near 4.17 release? That is preventing us to make a tasty 5% for Epic. :slight_smile:

@ - Can you run stat scenerendering and confirm that, with the landscape grass tool, you have ~10 times more drawcalls than with the same-ish number of manually drawn foliage objects? I have a sneaking suspicion that you have ran into the same that refused to acknowledge was real when I reported it almost two years ago: questions/313894/bug-landscape-grass-takes-forever-to-load.html

Could be wrong though.

[=;702258]
Please read again:

I explained my technical issues with the engine. I put money into a team to develop my game. That’s my personal stake. When I release the game and it has performance issues thanks to the broken foliage system, and other aforementioned bugs, that impacts my sales and reviews of my game. Those will affect me PERSONALLY. The Epic staff still gets paid no matter what at the end of the day. As such, I see the responses other developers get, learn from their experiences, and I bring those concerns into forum so they’ll be addressed.

I don’t see a reason to get deeper into it when your line of questioning is getting dangerously close to “Love it or leave it”. But in an effort to educate, Feedback forums are intended to give Feedback, good or bad, in order to make things better for all of those involved. That’s what I’ve been doing, along with many others. So if your question to me is why am I wasting my time on Unreal, that question, by proxy has to be extended to who has made a post in forum, and by further association who has ever posted in AnswerHub. And that includes you! You’ve posted about bugs with Unreal as well, right? Aren’t you similarly wasting your time? Why don’t you go use another engine?

The reason is the hope that things get better. That’s why forum exists in the first place. To realize that hope.

Is it realizing hope when you bash Epic employees about their twitter feed? Or requesting them to replace an existing employee because your needs are not met? Is your tone overall constructive? I actually agree with some of your stuff that you are talking about, but complaining about someone twitter feed and your overall tone isn’t helpful.

As for love it or leave it… if I was putting money into a project I would want to ensure that the tools used would be the right one for the job… If you are not getting the results needed for your project, perhaps UE4 is not the engine for you. is not an emotional, rather practical.