Torn Valley ~ NEW game

The following is pasted from another thread, but it covers some of the same concerns you have brought up in this one so I thought it was relevant to post here.

First, the goal. Yep, hefty. And yep, low for the project at the same time. Maybe the odds are against us, well for sure they dramatically are but no one ever accomplished great things by doing the same old and safe bet. Further to that, I’m not willing to ask for 250K, get it, and then not be able to deliver. Quality is much, much more important to me than a hand out. Yes I could use 250K to develop a polished “third person” version of Left4dead, but to be honest I can do that without 250K and while I love that game, it’s not what we’re setting out to make here.

Here’s what I’m battling:

**1 **Oh great, another zombie game rolley eyes and people don’t want p2p games anymore
**2 **Your team is too small to make this game, the amount of content needed takes more time, money, and people
**3 **You’re not famous enough to ask for money, what else have you done?
**4 **Ok fine, maybe the game does have a demand but we’ll play it safe and leave it to the large studios to make it happen and not give your team a chance to make it.

**1 **DayZ had an awesome idea and even got lucky enough to come around at the right place and right time, but unfortunately for whatever reason, most likely funding and an outdated engine since it’s a mod initially, they dropped the ball. Three million people can’t be wrong! Unfortunately, they weren’t able to expand on the experience because of it. Torn Valley isn’t just shooting zombies, it’s an entire social world, mostly controlled and manipulated by players. This is not “just another zombie game” and I’ve elaborated greatly on the Kickstarter site as to why it’s not!

Subscription based model is not dead. Sure, the new trend is “free” games that (cosmetic buys aside) get your time investment first and then start making you pay from the pockets in order to really play and be competitive. Taking advantage of the player’s guilt of “wasting time” if they don’t pay to continue to progress. This is still just p2p. Aside from that, WoW is at what, 4-6 million, yes I know it’s down from 10 million. Eve is somewhere between 500-700K subscribers. DayZ had 3 million copies sold, granted it’s not p2p, but the online population is scarce in DayZ these days, probably significantly under 10 000 players and that’s not because the monthly price is too high :wink: it’s because the game isn’t finished and it’s forever unfinished and it’s going stale because of it. That isn’t unfinished as in the areas aren’t done, that would be forgiveable(and fixable later) if the game functioned the way people want. Lately there hasn’t even been zombies in the game because it breaks the legacy code. Frantically trying to build new foundation while fixing old stuff so paying customers can somewhat play does not sound like my idea of a good time. So there is somewhere between 3 – 10 million players that want a mass online experience, willing to pay monthly for it and want a survival horror, progression, social experience. I don’t need them all to play Torn Valley, but I’m sure a lot would if the game was ready to go right now. It’s always good to keep in mind that it’s the producers setting the trends of the free VS pay to play models, not necessarily the consumers. Just because most take the easier route, doesn’t mean the other route isn’t prosperous.

**2 **Content, content, content! I’m a bit surprised to see people bring up the content aspect of the game. It’s a top priority in the plan but it’s lower on the list of risks. I won’t share details of my methodologies here online, maybe to you privately if you’re interested but then again I don’t know you :), but in short, I have a lot of “smart” procedurally based functions, usable to designers when building out large terrain and maps. On top of this, everyone is assuming we’re going to be making mass amounts of detailed objects from scratch and manually placing them to create the world. This isn’t exactly the model we’re planning to launch with. While yes, we’ll be creating many models from scratch, we also have legit access to thousands of modular asset pieces already today and can modify and rework and up-scale them however we see fit. We’ve scaled down a version of Manhattan that is creatable and have a design plan to build it out. Drops, enemies, and other dynamic things in the game are handled procedurally for the most part and actual map designs are going to be done by a small dedicated team that is very close to the project. Dedicated meaning all they do all day is build out the environment; many of the crafting items and processes are already built or planned out. Anything that doesn’t quite meet the standards visually will be replaced over time. In terms of non-visual content like missions and stories, these are also handled in a procedural fashion. Again, I’m not sharing my detailed plan but I can assure you we didn’t jump at this project thinking it was easy, but at the same time didn’t jump at it without a plan.

I didn’t just spend the last few months building out what you see JUST to show you what you see, I did it to see if the concept I’ve created is possible and I know it now is. We aren’t launching with the entire planet created, this was clear, it was to start small and grow with the community. Also, perhaps people have been in the corporate world too long. I run implementations of Cloud security software into major banks and corporations around the world as a day job and I can tell you with full confidence that most of those projects range from 3 – 12 months and always miss their deadlines by months due to “delays”. I can also tell you with full confidence that most of those 3 month implementations can be done in two weeks easy, but the delays are the massive hierarchy of people the project has to go through. People don’t work too hard when it’s a “9-5”, so most things are half effort, and that’s if you’re lucky; at each point in the chain and most things are shrugged off by most worker ants “until later”. In an 8 hour standard work day less than an hour generally gets done, because what does one person really care about in the grand scheme of the large corporation? The worst part is that it’s so rampant now that it’s considered standard for such long drawn out projects. Well that is NOT my work ethic and the team I have coming on board is personally and professionally dedicated to the project. This means, no side jobs and no surfing the web when there’s work to be done. I don’t need to enforce that policy, the team is invested and dedicated, spending 15 hour work days not because its required (it’s not at all lol), but because it’s what we love doing and WANT to be doing. 15 hour work days means 15 hours gets done that day. I really do spend 90% of my spare time just working on coding new things or improving things. You might be like, “ok I feel you…but” But of course you’d have some doubts over all… who wouldn’t. Everything has risk, we’re asking for a chance. That’s all.

**3 **Ok. Didn’t know that was a requirement. Preferred? YES, but a deal breaker? I thought I went to Kickstarter, not the local bank for a high interest loan… It appears now that the Kickstarter games section has become a place for people that, although they could easily get studios and investors on board, go directly to the people for funding instead, which unfortunately overshadows the little guy. Seems to mainly hurt the gaming section and maybe Kickstarter as my launch point was actually my biggest oversight. Perhaps I should have researched the “unspoken” requirements before choosing that. Imagine the guy that makes the coolest, most awesome lamp pops up a Kickstarter to make the idea take off and everyone says, “WOW so cool but well… what OTHER lamps have you made? Pfft… ya right, good luck bro”. If I was seeing my project as a different person and I took some time to read what was said, and actually appreciate what’s been accomplished by one person, after hours, in a short deal of time, I’d trust that guy over the 20 year veteran with very little information on the site and just a bit of concept art. (See Obduction: There’s your 20 year veteran, there goes your money and where is your game? And already the little guy is judged before even given a chance that your money is wasted?). I’d also trust that guy over EA who constantly promises this year’s edition of NHL will have those bugs finally fixed from 4 years ago….right. :slight_smile: at the end of the day I still recognize we’re the little guy, so instead of asking for $150Million which a large studio might publish as their budget, I’m asking for what I realistically believe will get this project off the ground.

4 I’m sure you know, that to try and work on what you’d consider a passion, while having to dedicate 80% of your life to working a day job to support… well life, is pretty tough. So unfortunately not having full time hours to dedicate puts me behind the others in terms of “previous releases” and I’m not the large studio. And that’s just the reality of it. But I can assure that there is a place for this game and I am the one to do it. I do have a professional team lined up already now. It’s a competitive market for sure but take some time to look at the info of this game, we’re doing this game differently. Many small teams and indie devs DO try and get a game like this going time and time again and everyone rolls their eyes. I’m far from stupid and I knew this well in advance and am guilty of doing it to other people’s posts about their aspirations. So I didn’t post to the masses about it, I didn’t beg people to believe me or validate my idea…instead I went away and with tons of input from contacts throughout the process, I built something and I’m showing it. We put together a very informative, open and honest campaign. I have yet to see another campaign of similar concept look as good or go as far. If I was a different person, I’d immediately throw $80 at it just to SEE if he could do it, honestly. No one else is going to bring this game home, I can guarantee you that. Studios keep popping out Assassins creed 7 or 8 and COD 8 or 9 because it’s quick, it’s easy, and it makes them enough money to make the next one. If I don’t bring this and the community doesn’t help, it won’t ever happen. I don’t want to be stuck with pay to win games and unfinished games with costly DLCs forever! Break the cycle.

Thanks for checking the site out and taking some time to post here!

The stretch goals make me smile. They might seem ridiculous but in reality we can’t realistically deliver 3-4 major playable city locations as well as minor ones by anywhere near our hopeful release date unless I quadruple the team and times it by three (I said it that way because I didn’t want to google what comes after quadruple) and build multiple cities out at once. I took cues off of successful kickstarters and they always seem to reach for the sky and I don’t really mind that. I view stretch goals not as “lets hit these thats our aim”, but more like, if people see we hit our target goal and they still want to continue to add to the game, get an awesome Donkey Kwon hat and get involved, then good for them. Here is the side bonuses for doing that, wherever we land, we land. Keep in mind that each stretch goal up the rung includes all the previous ones as well.

We also chose stretch goals that were already in the pipeline for future expansion as to not detract from the game at all by refocusing attention should any of them be hit. It also gives an idea as to where expansion will go post-release regardless of whether the stretch goals are hit.

Hi

Your passion for the project has compelled me to become a KS Backer!

Thanks so much sir!
Please be sure to keep following the project whether we get funded on KS or not, we’d definitely like to have some of your input throughout the development of the game.

It was a consideration. Yes we wouldn’t get anything and no one gets charged anything if we don’t reach our goal.
Multiple crowd funding campaigns may be the way to go in the end, it’s hard to say. Especially since Kickstarter games section seems to have become more about ensuring larger names get funded, not because they need it, but because it’s good advertising. KS is ok with this obviously since funded projects keeps them alive.

But it could also be that if you’d like 500,000 and you run 5 different campaigns for 100K. You might find less people aren interested in funding the smaller campaigns knowing that you still need to successfully fund 4 others afterwards, but you’re going to keep their money regardless from the first one. IF you can’t make the game on 100K its a larger risk to the backers knowing that they lose the money regardless and if you don’t get the other campaigns funded you can’t make the game, at least not in the time frame that makes sense.

There are many factors overall. Right now our biggest problem is simply getting people to KS and making the masses aware of the game. There is still plenty of time left in our campaign and whichever way it goes we’ll proceed. And we can try and raise money with a different strategy after this one if we need to.

Still looking for help with the project as well as just spreading the word. **We’ve also been staff picked! and we’ve just posted the following update on the Kickstarter: **

*It’s still early, but we’re seeing lots of people coming by to check out the Kickstarter campaign and that’s really cool. Thanks again to everyone who has backed us so far. We still have quite a ways to go to hit our goal, but there’s still plenty of time left to make this happen … we just need to keep spreading the word and letting people know!

We know many are skeptical about projects like this, having been burned in the past, especially in regard to crowdfunding. That’s understandable for sure. Many projects that get funded never release, and some are even big names and veterans who have nothing to show for the money they’ve been given. But our view on this is simply: “Don’t let past experiences hinder future ones!” It’s really that simple.

Sure, there are projects out there that seem too ambitious, too silly, don’t give enough info, have a low chance of delivering a final product. But Torn Valley is NOT one of those projects. We’re open about the project, have posted tons of information and respond to all concerns quickly! We’re continuously adding to the FAQs as new concerns are addressed. Please keep checking that for new info. There are still good games by good indie creators out here who know what they’re doing and are just looking for a chance to bring something amazing to the people who want it. We’re one of those.

Break the cycle and help fund this game. Let’s bring back the original spirit of crowdfunding! Every little bit helps bring us closer to our goal, but it also encourages the thousands of others just waiting on the sidelines to jump in as well. Remember, you aren’t charged at all unless we meet our goal in Jan, so backing us right away won’t result in any charges to you right now. What it does do however, is show your support instantly. So please, show others that you’re interested and pledge now, not later. The early part is always the hardest!

Lets do this!*

Please don’t take this the wrong way. I think that you are trying to do a kickstarter to early on in your project. There are a few things that I have noticed about kickstarter and one is that the people that get the big money are people who have a following or people that have worked on popular titles in the gaming industry they can get away with not having any content to show or have very little content to show and still get funded(The Mighty No 9) is one that I can thing of off the top of my head. Now I have seen a few people get funded that did not have big names. Those people had some positive exposure and a fan base before the did a kickstarter(SuperHot) comes to mind. I think they raised about $200,000. When I googled your game title it did not show up on the search nor did it have very many hits on Youtube. I respect the work that you have put into your project but I think that you need a bigger fan base to run a successful kickstarter as a unknown. It does not seem enough people know about what you are doing to raise the kind of money you are talking about. Keep working at it I am looking forward to seeing the game when you are done.

Have you tried to GreenLight this?

Is it not a bit late now?

Why not develop on a smaller scale?

Kickstarting for just one city is already a massive undertaking. Even big projects like GTA are dominated by closed boxes and a few basically scripted characters.

Think of the vertical slice, or the small and beautiful thing, rather than huge and empty (remember Daggerfall?).