Okay since you mentioned the word rant, despite many believe there are usually people ranting around the forums, I haven’t noticed anyone “starting” a rant, specially on these feedback forums.
If you’re giving constructive feedback but it’s not of Epic’s interest and you are ignored, then your constructive feedback is turned into a rant which in the end is not your fault to be blamed for. The rant is a product of how company treats feedback.
Okay let’s open this a bit. The day I joined this community I was a neutral community member slowly learning the engine. I had a very nice relationship with Epic staff be it MP guys, Rendering guys or anyone else. They even used to reply my PMs. But as time went on and started noticing “wrong things” kept happening around, and because I very much cared about this community and loved Epic, I started to give honest, constructive feedback as well as pointing out the system’s faults and failures hoping to see improvements, because everyone knows, Epic seems to love feedback so much and I had the same impression in the early days. Today my relationship with staff of any department at Epic is just gone. During a week I’m ignored dozens of times by staff whether it’s on AnswerHub, Forums, PMs, even where I @Mention or quote any of the staff whether it’s MP forum, Feedback forum, Rendering forum etc. = completely ignored. And that’s a trend with everyone who get’s on the same path. Yes I can bring a dozen of well known and most reputable community members who’d vouch that’s all true. So a person ranting isn’t simply a stupid person posting out of lack of information. A person ranting on the forums is the product of the same company he’s working with.
Now to break down how a constructive feedback is turned into a rant (and it’s not specific to this SSS issue, there are more instances):
- You create a bug report. They don’t even acknowledge any bug exists to begin with. Report is flagged as Resolved.
- You go through heck of an explaining pointing out precisely what is wrong and why. Your detailed explanation is simply, ignored, and report is flagged as Resolved.
- More people chime in and confirm there’s a problem. They reply is, the behavior is expected.
- You PM a rendering engineer and provide him the link to the report and explain there’s comparison in there showing how X isn’t working as intended anymore after some engine updates. The reply you get back from the engineer “Didn’t read the report, it was too long bye bye”.
- Even more people chime in and confirm there’s a problem. Epic: Okay… maybe there’s a problem.
- Bug ticket is created with wrong repro steps so the engineers fail to repro the issue.
- Bug ticket is backlogged upon creating it.
- Everyone sees their efforts in providing feedback and comparisons is wasted.
9. When this repeats several times over, their view on Epic changes. They complain if they get the chance to.
Look how well @BlackRang666 has described the bug fixing procedure here and on the other hand look how even better [MENTION=2522]Nick Darnell[/MENTION] describes that it’s not as simple as flipping a coin and takes some evaluation before deciding which bugs are priority and which ones are not.
Though the bit that’s unclear is A) How is it the person that’s only responsible for creating the ticket, Always flags the new tickets as backlogged since the start? B) Why the coin is never stopping on the other side? why we never see any decision made to fix any of the highly critical issues? C) How can such important base features be not a priority? there are hundreds of fixes in every release that nobody cares about as much as they care to see some critical bugs fixed. In this instance, sub surface scattering is broken, the entire UE4 userbase is suffering from it. Now are we ranting or we was on the righteous path at #1 and we were unintentionally driven to #9?
Another example is the recent spline decals thread.
- Create feature request thread.
- So many people shown interest in the tool.
- Feature request ticket was created, backlogged upon creation. No news or anything after a long time.
- More people chime in and show interest.
- Was asked by Epic to demonstrate the requested feature, which I did, along with a comparison. Didn’t get any attention though.
- Was told by Epic votes determine the interest in feature and without votes nothing happens.
- Votes went up from 0 to 95 though, no attention from Epic. @Mention, Quote, no attention from Epic. Thread dies and the ticket with it.
8. People’s time is wasted and they complain if they get a chance to.
Another example is tessellation ShadowDepths problem:
- Bug report is created by user, Epic doesn’t acknowledge any issue exists.
- Tons of comparisons and in depth reviews provided by users, in return, a dozen times the report is flagged as resolved.
- Nine months later userbase is still fighting to prove the problem is there, the evidence is there, the behavior is unexpected. Epic: There’s no problem, flagged as resolved.
4. People complain when they see after 9 months time they have only wasted time left and right trying to help Epic improve something.
Another example is my own tessellation base cost report more than a year ago:
- Create bug report, post comparisons tessellation is broken.
- Flagged as resolved.
- Bring detailed explanation tessellation base cost is +20ms with even 0 tess multiplier. Epic: Tessellation is expected to have a base cost. Flagged as resolved.
- +20ms for just enabling flat tessellation with 0 tess multiplier? +20ms is not an expected base cost!
- After months back and fourth the base cost was finally reduced from +20ms to ~5ms (which is still extremely high).
6. Further feedback is not approved and report is flagged as resolved.
Another example is Marketplace:
- People still get rejected without knowing why.
- Generic macro replies are used by Epic when people are expecting detailed replies.
- Most procedures that could be automated are intentionally kept manual.
- After 4 years still basic online store features are completely missing.
- Creator’s Hub is abandoned due to lack of communication between sellers and staff.
- Staff left Discord (while having no active presence in forums either).
- While the only communication channel is through email, email tickets go missing left and right and people remain unanswered.
- In case ticket doesn’t go missing, sometimes people wait more than 2-3 weeks to get a reply.
- Feedback is asked for, but not collected to act accordingly.
10. People complain when they get a chance to.
Now this turned into a solid +A grade essay and I’m not even being specific yet, so let’s stop bringing examples, but yeah that’s generally how Epic handles feedback here and there and no one rants unless they’re unintentionally driven to that last point of unintentional complain.
To stay on topic (;)) @DamirH, having such history, I doubt the reason they are not fixing SSS is because they are working on an alternative SSS solution that’d work on forward rendering too. :eek: SSS, which is applied to every piece of foliage in every UE4 project, should be among the highest priorities for Epic to fix not to backlog. And if (big if) they are working on an alternative SSS solution, that wouldn’t hurt to know people about it. I don’t believe I’ve ranted here, I’ve wrote the facts as is. Though, still if staff think I’m ranting, I’m sorry on behalf of myself and anyone else who points their fingers to existing issues. And making this post I know I’m destroying even the slightest chance of seeing SSS fixed, because Epic doesn’t have a process-oriented procedure for fixing bugs regardless of whether anyone rants or not, as Nick himself described very well in the other thread, it’s a personal-oriented procedure where they make their own decisions regardless of community input and what is important to UE4 userbase “at the moment”.
All in all, if the repro steps on the SSS ticket could be corrected (having mentioned it twice on the report) that’d be great.