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Meta Humans Topology

Is there any chance that in the future the vertice count and triangle data would be identical across all meta humans?
On quixel I tried 4 random models and out of the 4 of them only 3 had identical vertice count and triangles.

The difference seems to be only on LOD 0. For the other LODs they are all 4 identical.

This would allow us to create morph targets to transition between models.

Example on what can be accomplished:

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All assets in Metahumans are on the same topology (across different LODs) that is precisely fitted to different head shapes in order to have same edge loops defining same facial features.
Only exception are groom meshes (hair, beards and mustaches) of course.
On which mesh (section) do you see different vertex count?

Hey, for example Aoi and Ada, face meshes, in engine.

Hey ,To be able to see it better check out this: https://youtu.be/_dXJJt7_p6g?t=80

Thanks for sharing the video.

Regarding the difference in the vertex count we will need to understand where it is coming from. Head asset is actually composed out of multiple meshes such as head, teeth, eyes, eyelashes, etc… And all of these meshes have well defined topology which has to be the same across all the characters. As mentioned, only exception is groom, so things like hair, beards, mustaches but also eyebrows. Maybe this difference is coming from different eyebrows selection on different characters. That would be my guess. Simple fix would be to open these Metahumans in MHC and make sure they have same eyebrows selected. Once that change is done, you could save changes and download it again through the Bridge.

A side note, while making sure that you have same eyebrows on characters, you could also select same body type for all of them. That will align their heights and necks. By doing so, you won’t need to go through the step of head alignment. Necks and heads should be aligned perfectly.

Hope this helps.

2 Likes

Awesome. Thank you for the explanation and help. I’ll dig more into MHC.

Hi There … Eyebrows or Eyelashes Are not “Just” the Issue …
There are many Small Vertex Counts Inconsistency in Whole Pipeline

Making Impossible Advanced Artistic workflows in External Aplications
as Comon Studio work of using Wraph For our Extra Own Scanbased Workflows … etc …

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
HERE SOME PROOFS

lod_0
Body Mesh : f_med_unw_body
» Unreal to Fbx 2020
« Import to Maya 2020


DEFAULT DANIELLE METAHUMAN

32342 Vertex
60816 Faces
60816 Tris


DEFAULT KRISTOFER METAHUMAN

32335 Vertex
60816 Faces
60816 Tris

:::::::::::::::
ISSUES

  • Wille Has Same “Triangles Count” / “Vertex order” is diferent

  • Vertex Count Difers by +7 Vertex on Female Body

  • This Ghost vertex Appeared Without Changing the Triangles count …

  • Wich means is a internal pipeline problem Changing meshes randomly

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::
EXTRA Issues


Engine Triangulation / Imports Exports

  • Meshes Exported from Unreal Fbx / Usd - Come in Triangules / Diferent From Maya Provided files that come in Quads …

    • So even if we make changes to metahumans in maya, We Canot bring those back to unreal
      • We canot Reverse / Quadify mesh … we will Loose Vertex order, and canot Have tris Quads Morph compatibility
  • In some Situations Vertex Counts Mismatch Directly from bridge to maya

    • Send to maya 1 Day / Vertex Count is one …
    • Send a Secound day / Same Character : Vertex Count Changed !

This happened here …
So there are sure some troubles in the Generate Download Import export process …
Why so many people Complain But is So Dificult to Pin & Debug it ?


Lack of Morph to bone Adjustments Pipeline

  • Maya provided Bone Rig dont have ( bindPreMatrix attribute on skinClusters )
    • That Means we Canot Morph The Character And Auto Adjust Bones to follow the Morph Target, Wich is Absolutely Totally Essencial … Especially in case of External Morphing to face Shape … Wich has 800 bones … That will be out of place … Making it impossible just author The face Externally …

Check this Tread to know what im talking …

Reallusion Character creator / Major Bigest Metahuman Competitor has this Bones Adjust to Morph Targets Solution …
Even the 20 years Ago … Poser Software has this feature … Why UNREAL & Metahumans dont ?


Maya / Unreal Body + Head Welded Body Setups Mismatch

  • Full body “Head + Body Welded” Provided in maya / Has Same Shape in Body / but Face Shape Modeled in Web App Difers
    • This makes Impossible to Alighn Wraph Meshes / With Latices in R3DSW
      • Even if we Weld Manually Body + Mesh, vertex Order will Difer … ends up a big mess .

Body + Head Separated Workflows

  • Are very Hazardous For Editing Workflows

    • Photogrametry ScanBased Pipeline as R3ds Wraping to Scan Based Photogrametry Data Needs 1 Single Object And Canot Work with Disconected Pieces Workflows …
  • Artists using Zbrush To Sculpt need the Full body SUBDivision feature …

    • Wich Canot be used With head + Body Separated … Will create huge gaps Make workflows terrible

Default Uvs from Metahuman is a Nightmare …

  • They are Full of Seams Everywere …
    • This makes TexturinG Autouring Extremely hard To Cover all those seams
      • Expecially on procedural Generated textures / As Workflows in MARi / Substance painter …

  • GUYS ! The WHOLE BODY Up to Neck Should be 1 Single Uv Shell … and head And neck Another

LIKE THIS Example Bellow

  • Wich is The Most Extreme optimal uv layout
    • for both High end Ultra Cinematic 16k 2 Textures / to 1k Just 1 Texture for Mobile
    • Metahumans SHould have This UV layout by Default to fit Both Industries …

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
MY VERY PERSONAL UNIQUE EXPERT OPINION THESIS
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::


Poser / DazStudio / Reallusion = Since long Ago Stablished a Default SINGLE MESH Body Head Setup …

From Cinema to Games … is a INDUSTRY STANDART …

BECAUSE … it avoids so so many troubles …


With a More Obvious Simple “Hiding Polygons” that Users need … Extra feature
In the Cases we need “Just the head” … or we need to hide Body Polygons just on pants etc …

That is a Simple Standart from Games to Cinematics Development … Allowing
Modeling Skining Transfering From the Main body to Cloths Without rerigging …

Were the Full body SINGLE Mesh serves as primordial base of workflows …


I am a 25 Years Experienced Senior 3d Artist …
I started Modeling 3D Characters back in early 1990s

So … i kinda know What im saying here …

And What im Seeing here of METAHUMANS … in Mesh and Uvs …
The Art Pipeline … ITS A HELL OF A MESS GUYS !!

Really Hopping You Guys fix This Mesh & Uvs Messy Issues ASAP …
Before Becomes the Standart And Its Too late !

And if Its Already too late …
Wich im already guessing it is -.-


I guess you guys Now in the hard way Should Work out in a System …
( Or . . Like Spend monee and Aquire the Russian R3dsWraph Team & Software … )

To make a FREE External Tool That Allow us to Swap Metahumans Meshes With Our own Meshes
After All Dna Work Done iN Web Tool … And Downloaded … Act Like R3dsWrap

Allowing to Imput our own Scan based Photogrammetry data
As well Artistic Zbrush / 3Dcoat free Sculpts / Retopos

Wraping up WitH Automatic Weight / Riguing Adjusting / Bones & Maps bake transfer Methods

So that We CAN have Really TotallY Artistic Freedom …
( No matter the EPIC Creepy : Uvs Meshes & Crazy Bones layouts )


Who is the guy ? That Did the Amazing SillY idea …
Of Separated Body Head mesh Models / Crazy 800 face bones / And Messy uvs ?

I want Shoot him in the foot …
Because its what he did t0 All US!



( Well maybe you guys Should Contract-Me … ; )
To do a Expert Better job on External Charactering …
Art Pipeline Infusion Setups ? … : )

Hey im joking…
LOL … but … OK

Lets TALK Seriously …


I understand the Fact that METAHUMAN Whole Pipeline … as a whole massive DNA Scans Database
Is a new Paradigm that is StilL being developed And Some amazing things have been done
For Example how a 1000 bones rig can be Driven just with Easy Dials …

Having a dedicated RBF solver behind driving Correct blendShape deformations rig as in engine
And We Can just Animate the Dials iN maya and Just Export … simply …
Not the thousand bones but just the controlers …

GREATH … But can you tell-me how that Face Rig performs in a 100$ mobile ?


SO Wouldnt be More EASY …
To After That GianT Work Done
COME BACK TO THE BASICS …

See how Poser / DazStudio / Reallusion
Being doing things / Much More Simplisticly …

Full body Head 1 mesh Setup / Simple Hand Animated Few Bones Rig
Bones Follow Morphs … Extremely Simple UVS

And Easier Setups that really Work Across Platforms
Even in Mobile / As Character Creator Iclone Characters do


Its Like You guys did a CRAZY Fantastic COMPLEX job … CONGRATULATIONS !

BUT NOW is Time to Instead Thinking too much … How to Make Even more Complex Things …
STEP BACK … And Study how Others tools like POSER / Reallusion / Daz
Been Doing it For Like 20 years … Sucessefully as Base Standart …
in so much Easier Feasable FREEDOM Artistic Driven Ways …


Please Guys THINK BETTER in all this …
And Give us a Alternative method to SIMPLIFY things to that level … Like

  • SIngle Mesh Body + Head Toguether … 2 Uv Shells Whole body
  • Few Less Than 20 bones ( Easy Hand Animated ) Alternative RIG for Body Setup
  • Head with few 5 Bones , and just morph WitH Dials Animation Based …

THEN ON TOP OF THAT … You can go As Crazy as you want !
You guys dont need to in anyway Change All massive work Done

But PLEASE make a ALTERNATIVE Setup That is Extremely SIMPLISTIC to Author

Because is the SIMPLISTIC Setup Autoring That Will reach Easy faster to EVERYONE
And that Will potentialize the HIGHLY high candy Deeply ARTISTIC Results

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

THANKS FOR THIS GREATH AMAZING … Realistic …
( BuT Still so Seriously Artisticly limited Platform … )

That WitH So much effort for Long Years you guys Kindly did to all us …

And THANKS SO MUCH For So Openly listening to all our wishes !

Much Health and joy !
BIG : ) CHEERS !

:sparkles:
Ruben Ismael
SOULSSHINE Studio

3 Likes

Hi soussaga
I get your point and its a bit messie but you should consider to use the maya export to modify your model since it’s a clean base mesh with really nice LOD’s which handle the blendshapes nicely.

For the skeletal morphing I think all the other mentioned software are lacking a bit of modularity since a skeletal structure is set definitely when exported. For this reason I would use some code/blueprint in Unreal to have the skeletal morphing inside of the engine.
here a prototype I’m currently working on.

Custom Morph in UnrealEngine4

Greetz
der_kenshin

1 Like

This is an interesting prototype, do you have plans on releasing it to the marketplace or making it open source?

I’ve planned to release it for the market place. Now it depends, if I can use a Metahuman as a base mesh I could add to the skeletal mesh a working example with morph targets which can be used with other Metahumans. Otherwise I’m forced to make a own basemesh with the morphtargets.

Hi SOULSSAGA,

Thanks for the ton of good feedback. We will definitely take a look into that. I will make sure our body team is aware of it.
Btw, the part that I was commenting on were heads rather than bodies, so we should not have these challenges on head meshes.

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Guys, currently, is there any way to bring modified Metahuman mesh to UE4 while keeping the rig? I can easily apply some simple adjustments in Maya (like enlarging the nose), no change to topology, and the facial rig seems to keep working fine. How can I bring it to Unreal? As a morph target or just an updated skeletal mesh, but to keep all the rig? (currently the rigs mismatch if I export from Maya and can’t use the existing MTH skeleton).
For me and for sure many other it’s the biggest feature request!

Hi!

I was stuck with the same problem, this guy shared the trick that you need✨

Im struggling getting the rig to work with my sculpted characters transfer to their topology I hope someone cracks the code

1 Like