Do not understand the point of MarketPlace

[anonymous_user_7af3b797]

@JBaldwin

Hi, I’m glad you took part in discussion. And I do understand that big studios do virtually everything in house. Yes. No misunderstanding here.

But I was rather talking about small to medium studios with aspirations to make AAA games, as I believe most of people here fall into that category.

Now, I’d be really grateful if you could explain to me and give me valid reasons for not doing (and I have to stress, I DO NOT want to have argument with you, I simply would really like to learn and discover something new):

Ok, here it is:

If my game requires road signs, of all kinds, and I happen to came across package on marketplace which offers exactly that, why would I choose making my own?
First of all, road signs ARE standardized and to the best of my knowledge most of them DO LOOK THE SAME in most countries, so if I have identical road signs in my game and some other game has identical roadsigns, surely users (players) won’t say, hey, road sign is identical to the one I saw in other game? (By identical I mean for example, STOP sign has the same coloring and pattern and shape, not specific dust, mud and scratches marks and masks).

If I buy those from market place, and throw here and there (in material editor) mask for dirt, offset it so it doesn’t repeat itself, add some other minor cosmetic touches the chances are that sign will look unique and no other game will have identical STOP sign with identical scratches, dirt and dust.
What am I gaining? Precious time…
Instead of spending let’s say a week on making those 20-30 road signs (which in the end they will look identical to those from marketplace minus marks, dirt and scratches), I’ve spent week on what’s really important: original content - characters, weapons, gameplay. I paid let’s say $50, spent lets say additional two to three hours on adding marks, scratches and what not and I’m done.
To me is simply good time management.

What if I decide not to buy them from market place? What am I gaining?
Could you please explain that to me, because I genuinely fail to see the point? Just note, that I prefer to get my experience, have my satisfaction and fun while making original content. So please don’t say that making bog standard props gives me that.

Also, megascans from Quixel library? No point in buying them for AAA titles right?

Thank you.

[JBaldwin]

No problem

As you wish, we will remove the AAA studio setting from the discussion so we can focus on the aspiring studios or indie companies. I understand your argument concerning generic assets (such as rocks, grass, basic signs, etc.) and am not against it. I was simply stating the lack of use within AAA studios, or studios/indie teams who have a specific art direction. For example: All of the factors would have to line up in order for the sign pack to be useful. Meaning, if the sign pack was a generic modern sign pack, then the game would have to be very specific. It would need to have been built in modern times, within a relevant art style to match the signs, and built within the proper structure so that the signs would blend in and become part of the environment. But change any of those factors by much, and the sign pack is a waste of time rather than a help. For Example: Let’s change one small factor - the setting is futuristic. Now all of a sudden, a modern sign pack would not work. Therefor, the work required in modifying each asset to fit a futuristic setting would most likely result in loss of time.

And if I can state for the record, I don’t believe using marketplace content within a game makes anyone look bad or incapable. However, if someone downloads a modern sign pack, or a rock pack with earth rock designs, it could hurt them rather than help if their art styles require them to modify the content to a great degree. In my opinion, it would be better to just make futuristic signs, or take the time to sculpt alien rocks. Because then I have full control rather than a preset item that I now have to beat into another shape to make it work.

In regard to your question about megascans. I previously stated:

Mass Produced Textures, Photography, Materials, etc.

• Can be used anywhere (Not limited to a market)

Items like are used by everyone. It is one of those content types that transcends genres, industries, and specific application. Things such as textures, photography, scans, materials, etc., are manipulated in far different ways, and are much more versatile than something such as a mesh. makes them easy and usable for pretty much anything. If a mesh had the same flexibility as a texture, then they would be just as widely versatile and accepted. But they aren’t. Meshes are 3Dimensional, complex, and have to be tailored by hand to fit a specific purpose. I believe is one reason why companies don’t sell you a 3D model from those textures / megascans. They know the difficulties and constraints if they were to do so (and the chances of people buying a 3Dimensional scan is smaller than buying the editable 2D raw data). Therefor, they simply sell you the textures and megascans (or the material templates).

–

[anonymous_user_7af3b797]

@JBaldwin

Hi, thank you for your reply.

But that’s my exact point (your entire post). If I can see pack that is good for my game, that is, I do modern times game with modern times road signs, and I have seen such pack on marketplace. Would you still recommend that I don’t use it? And if so why?

Because in your previous reply, you’ve changed modern road sign to futuristic and those are two different things and I would never consider buying something inappropriate and then trying to make it appropriate because it is a waste of time. Just like I wouldn’t buy a generic vegetation pack if I make game with plantation from Mars. What’s the point? In that case I’d make it myself. Why? Because it is original content for my game not generic plantation.

But if as I’ve said, I see modern road sign package in MP (market place), my game requires modern road sign package, would you still recommend that I make my own instead of buying that one and modifying it in a way I’ve explained in my previous post, that is, adding dirt here, scratch there, mud somewhere else?

And I cannot stress it strong enough:
We are talking about generic models of modern road signs which my game has to use. If I make them myself, I’ll make them exactly as they are in the market place. The only difference will be that I’ll waste my time on making them instead of concentrating on making original content.

I’ll be really grateful if you can reply.

Thank you.

[anonymous_user_7318feb3]

Wilhelm scream

LOL: The Recurring Prop Newspaper - /Film

It happens everywhere

[anonymous_user_7af3b797]

@oasf
Absolutely!
I’d go even one step further and say that using props correctly and with appropriate amount of taste and forethought is essential in management, where it can save you days or weeks or even months. It is actually good practice, and not doing so is a strategic and amateurish mistake.
Take for example that scenario:

You’re making a game set in modern times where you need whole bunch of modern standard weapons. You come across such pack on market place. It perfectly fits your bill. 20-30 modern weapons, modeled, textured, with materials. etc etc. Ready to use. Price $50 - 200.
But you want to be ambitious and say, nope, I’m not gonna use them, is cheating and makes me look unprofessional, lame and weak in general form. Instead you make exactly the same weapons yourself. Instead of spending $50-200 you spent a month (if you work fast) and at the end of month you’ve came up with exactly the same pack, but instead of buying it for $50 -200 you made it yourself - at least 8hours per day, at least 24 days = 192 working hours (at least), on something you could have bought in 5 minutes and spend additional day or two on modifying it, that is adding custom scratches mark, discoloration etc.

Do you really think game player will say, wait a sec! I saw that AK-47 in some other game also set in modern times and it looked exactly like it. That is, it looked exactly like AK-47, what a lame game it is!!!
Yep, right. It looks exactly like Ak-47 because it is AK-47 and IT SHOULD look exactly the same in any game which uses AK-47 as a weapon model!

I say : Such behavior is unprofessional from the managerial point of view and if you doing so you have your priorities wrong and you really need to do some thinking on how you manage your time and resources.

Anything is doable, possible, manageable. The only problem is time.

[santokki]

@;166459

Instead of spending $50-200 you spent a month (if you work fast) and at the end of month you’ve came up with exactly the same pack, but instead of buying it for $50 -200 you made it yourself - at least 8hours per day, at least 24 days = 192 working hours (at least), on something you could have bought in 5 minutes and spend additional day or two on modifying it, that is adding custom scratches mark, discoloration etc.

.

is the beauty of the marketplace. And since the asset makers are probably specialists at what they do, even if the typical game developer (usually not a specialized modeler and texturer) worked 8 hours per day for 24 days, the quality of the final product would still be inferior compared to the marketplace asset.

A small team (especially a team of one) can save literally THOUSANDS of man hours by purchasing marketplace assets. And if the team is smart, they can utilize the purchased assets in a unique way to “disguise” the fact they are generic assets, and create a game with a unique look and feel.

Or you can model and texture and code every single thing in your game yourself. And you know what… when you finally finish it, your game still probably wouldn’t even look and feel that unique anyway, especially if you are making something like a zombie first person shooter, which all tend to have similar mechanics.

So to maximize your of uniqueness (if you are super ambitious or have a huge team with lots of cash), might as well go all the way unique and write your own game engine (Epic did to create their game “Unreal”). And your own C++ libraries. Heck, forget Maya and Blender - write your 3D graphics software and model and animate every single asset in your production yourself (Pixar does with 3D software they wrote called “Marionette” and “Presto”). Your game will probably look and feel super unique (although most of us will die of old age before finishing such a game).

[anonymous_user_7318feb3]

@;166459

@anonymous_user_7318feb3
Absolutely!
I’d go even one step further and say that using props correctly and with appropriate amount of taste and forethought is essential in management, where it can save you days or weeks or even months. It is actually good practice, and not doing so is a strategic and amateurish mistake.
Take for example that scenario:

You’re making a game set in modern times where you need whole bunch of modern standard weapons. You come across such pack on market place. It perfectly fits your bill. 20-30 modern weapons, modeled, textured, with materials. etc etc. Ready to use. Price $50 - 200.
But you want to be ambitious and say, nope, I’m not gonna use them, is cheating and makes me look unprofessional, lame and weak in general form. Instead you make exactly the same weapons yourself. Instead of spending $50-200 you spent a month (if you work fast) and at the end of month you’ve came up with exactly the same pack, but instead of buying it for $50 -200 you made it yourself - at least 8hours per day, at least 24 days = 192 working hours (at least), on something you could have bought in 5 minutes and spend additional day or two on modifying it, that is adding custom scratches mark, discoloration etc.

Do you really think game player will say, wait a sec! I saw that AK-47 in some other game also set in modern times and it looked exactly like it. That is, it looked exactly like AK-47, what a lame game it is!!!
Yep, right. It looks exactly like Ak-47 because it is AK-47 and IT SHOULD look exactly the same in any game which uses AK-47 as a weapon model!

I say : Such behavior is unprofessional from the managerial point of view and if you doing so you have your priorities wrong and you really need to do some thinking on how you manage your time and resources.

Anything is doable, possible, manageable. The only problem is time.

My stance exactly. I’m currently prototyping, and I am almost exclusively using prefab assets, either bought or royalty free. I intend to keep some of them in the final product too, or at least the meshes.
I am going for historical realism, so If I want a solingen sword, there is really no room for individual creativity any ways (as the mesh goes).

[anonymous_user_7af3b797]

@santokki;166519

.

is the beauty of the marketplace. And since the asset makers are probably specialists at what they do, even if the typical game developer (usually not a specialized modeler and texturer) worked 8 hours per day for 24 days, the quality of the final product would still be inferior compared to the marketplace asset.

A small team (especially a team of one) can save literally THOUSANDS of man hours by purchasing marketplace assets. And if the team is smart, they can utilize the purchased assets in a unique way to “disguise” the fact they are generic assets, and create a game with a unique look and feel.

Or you can model and texture and code every single thing in your game yourself. And you know what… when you finally finish it, your game still probably wouldn’t even look and feel that unique anyway, especially if you are making something like a zombie first person shooter, which all tend to have similar mechanics.

So to maximize your of uniqueness (if you are super ambitious or have a huge team with lots of cash), might as well go all the way unique and write your own game engine (Epic did to create their game “Unreal”). And your own C++ libraries. Heck, forget Maya and Blender - write your 3D graphics software and model and animate every single asset in your production yourself (Pixar does with 3D software they wrote called “Marionette” and “Presto”). Your game will probably look and feel super unique (although most of us will die of old age before finishing such a game).

Abso-bloody-exactly!!!

[Jerrys_Joystick]

SORRY to everyone posting on thread.It seems it is going a bit **** up.

@JBaldwin i am not angry about MarketPlace,i think it is a wonderful thing.If you cannot create your own 3d models,and assets it is amazing.

@ Sorry man your terrains look amazing.

[KingBadger3D]

Can thread PLEASE be moved to General discussion, Just because it’s loosely attached to market place it’s not helping anyone trying to show market place content

[anonymous_user_64c55f0b]

@;166459

You’re making a game set in modern times where you need whole bunch of modern standard weapons. You come across such pack on market place. It perfectly fits your bill. 20-30 modern weapons, modeled, textured, with materials. etc etc. Ready to use. Price $50 - 200.
But you want to be ambitious and say, nope, I’m not gonna use them, is cheating and makes me look unprofessional, lame and weak in general form. Instead you make exactly the same weapons yourself. Instead of spending $50-200 you spent a month (if you work fast) and at the end of month you’ve came up with exactly the same pack, but instead of buying it for $50 -200 you made it yourself - at least 8hours per day, at least 24 days = 192 working hours (at least), on something you could have bought in 5 minutes and spend additional day or two on modifying it, that is adding custom scratches mark, discoloration etc.

Do you really think game player will say, wait a sec! I saw that AK-47 in some other game also set in modern times and it looked exactly like it. That is, it looked exactly like AK-47, what a lame game it is!!!
Yep, right. It looks exactly like Ak-47 because it is AK-47 and IT SHOULD look exactly the same in any game which uses AK-47 as a weapon model!

While I agree, there is actually a lot of wiggle room in example. For instance Killing Floor benefits from a unique AK-47 model by showing incredibly detailed animations during slow-mo. Including all the moving parts and details required in, say, an AK-47 in Call of Duty wouldn’t make sense.

[Jacky]

Since turned into a discussion on the benefits/harms of marketplaces in general i’m moving thread to General Discussion section of the forum.

[santokki]

@;166779

While I agree, there is actually a lot of wiggle room in example. For instance Killing Floor benefits from a unique AK-47 model by showing incredibly detailed animations during slow-mo. Including all the moving parts and details required in, say, an AK-47 in Call of Duty wouldn’t make sense.

I don’t think people are in disagreement with you. If you have the skill and – more importantly – the time to make such awesome assets, and the asset will be featured heavily as a core gameplay element (like a slow-mo close-up shot), then it might make sense to lovingly hand-craft such an item.

But usually most of us have to consider deadlines and such. So it probably saves a lot of time and money to just buy the weapon assets that the far-away enemies are holding, or at least the rocks in the background. I sure wouldn’t want to spend even a few hours modeling and texturing rocks if I can get nice looking rocks for cheap or free in the marketplace. Modify the rocks slightly (takes a few minutes) and no one will even notice they are generic assets.

[anonymous_user_7af3b797]

@;166779

While I agree, there is actually a lot of wiggle room in example. For instance Killing Floor benefits from a unique AK-47 model by showing incredibly detailed animations during slow-mo. Including all the moving parts and details required in, say, an AK-47 in Call of Duty wouldn’t make sense.

But “Killing Floor benefits from a unique AK-47 model by showing incredibly detailed animations during slow-mo” is a “ORIGINAL CONTENT” not a standard one and as I’ve mentioned it before I would always do original content for myself.

We are talking about generic props. The line is very fine. In one game AK-47 is a generic (and doesn’t matter who made it as long as it looks good), in another game AK-47 is very original content, as you’ve said, with original anims and what not, and of course should be made in house. I always stated that.

Just like any tree for example. If your games in about group of commando running through forest, surely the trees may be generic. But if your game is about trees growing in forest, my opinion is that it is worth to make them “in house”, because that is a original content.

[anonymous_user_a006f79c]

@;166982

But “Killing Floor benefits from a unique AK-47 model by showing incredibly detailed animations during slow-mo” is a “ORIGINAL CONTENT” not a standard one and as I’ve mentioned it before I would always do original content for myself.

We are talking about generic props. The line is very fine. In one game AK-47 is a generic (and doesn’t matter who made it as long as it looks good), in another game AK-47 is very original content, as you’ve said, with original anims and what not, and of course should be made in house. I always stated that.

Just like any tree for example. If your games in about group of commando running through forest, surely the trees may be generic. But if your game is about trees growing in forest, my opinion is that it is worth to make them “in house”, because that is a original content.

I’ve seen a hell of a lot of textures in AAA and Indie come from everywhere and anywhere, I can’t help but notice CGTextures / Gametexture and Quixel (Ubisoft, Blizzard and Infinity Ward use Quixel for example) maps in anything from the big budget AAA’s right down to the little guys… They use asset stores that’s for sure, SpeedTree is another thing which is like an Asset store product for generating trees. I’m using the terminology loosely here, but it’s in the Witcher, Avatar the movie, Saints row. They are literally all over the place…

Trick is to be smart about it, if you do it right nobody can tell :D…

Well unless you use the products and stare at the texures all day, then you really can… After all it’s simple economics, why go through the pain of creating thousands of meshes and textures which you need pay for people to scan and create. When you have them all handily available to give to your artists for them to simply tweak? Are you going to pay the hundred’s if not millions in staff costs for the extra effort… Or are you going to pay a couple of K for a library?

Simple economics, is how AAA works and it’s finally filtered down to everyone…

[anonymous_user_7af3b797]

@ShadowKindGames;166988

I’ve seen a hell of a lot of textures in AAA and Indie come from everywhere and anywhere, I can’t help but notice CGTextures / Gametexture and Quixel (Ubisoft, Blizzard and Infinity Ward use Quixel for example) maps in anything from the big budget AAA’s right down to the little guys… They use asset stores that’s for sure, SpeedTree is another thing which is like an Asset store product for generating trees. I’m using the terminology loosely here, but it’s in the Witcher, Avatar the movie, Saints row. They are literally all over the place…

Trick is to be smart about it, if you do it right nobody can tell :D…

Well unless you use the products and stare at the texures all day, then you really can… After all it’s simple economics, why go through the pain of creating thousands of meshes and textures which you need pay for people to scan and create. When you have them all handily available to give to your artists for them to simply tweak? Are you going to pay the hundred’s if not millions in staff costs for the extra effort… Or are you going to pay a couple of K for a library?

Simple economics, is how AAA works and it’s finally filtered down to everyone…

You know that is my exact point right?