… technology compiling byte code to machine code equally fast as C++ is maturing and making its way into the pipeline of development tools.
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Any chance to actually support this with some reliable data? Because I know for a fact and I’ve provided link to research done by Google, that Java is at best 370% slower than C++ and at worse 1260%. Why would I want that?
Also C# nor Java for that matter DO NOT INCREASE productivity and that has been proven too.
So please provide some data to support your opinion.
[=DancingPeasant;126373]
Producitivity is worth more than performance - even Sweeney himself has said so.
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Tend to disagree with him on that one. There is little point in producing whole lot of software which performs poorly.
Another point I’d like to make is that QUALITY should be the ultimate factor and C++ gives you better quality of virtually everything:
The only hard part about using C++ is manual memory managment. Explicit memory managment is where most people get WTF sign and give up.
And for that matter UE4 solves this problem. As long as you are using UPROPERTY() or TWeakObjectPtr, you don’t need to understand what memory is, really.
The only harder part is when you are going to extend engine, editor or write UI using Slate. As there even using smart pointers you still have to think a bit about managing memory.
[=;126379]
Any chance to actually support this with some reliable data? Because I know for a fact and I’ve provided link to research done by Google, that Java is at best 370% slower than C++ and at worse 1260%. Why would I want that?
[/]
And UnrealScript was how many times slower? 10? Why would you want that? Productivity.
Unity demoed some of the upcoming technology in Unity5 called IL2CPP:
Also some JIT paper I found (not same as above, which is AOT):
[=;126379]
Also C# nor Java for that matter DO NOT INCREASE productivity and that has been proven too.
So please provide some data to support your opinion.
[/]
Ok, we might just as well stop discussing here if you truly believe this. C++ development by its very nature is more prone to bugs because of free memory access. Some bugs are ridiculously hard to near impossible to debug and find if the memory is being corrupted by write violations.
[=DancingPeasant;126410]
And UnrealScript was how many times slower? 10? Why would you want that? Productivity.
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Not productivity but for people who otherwise wouldn’t have chance to create anything because they simply are unable to program uscript was invented so they can pretend that they can do some programming.
@DancingPeasant
Every time I work with software written in managed code it seems sluggish. Visual is best example of this. Virtually unusable for a large code base like UE4.
[=;126427]
Not productivity but for people who otherwise wouldn’t have chance to create anything because they simply are unable to program uscript was invented so they can pretend that they can do some programming.
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Thanks for confirming your ignorance. No further discussion required.
[=;126428] @DancingPeasant
Every time I work with software written in managed code it seems sluggish. Visual is best example of this. Virtually unusable for a large code base like UE4.
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Well, do you know of an alternative IDE that can do the things VS does as well as VS does that is faster for exceptionally large projects like UE4?
[=The_E;126461]
Well, do you know of an alternative IDE that can do the things VS does as well as VS does that is faster for exceptionally large projects like UE4?
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Qt is much better than VS virtually in everything. Written in C++ of course that’s why its performance is superb.
[=;126466]
Qt is much better than VS virtually in everything. Written in C++ of course that’s why its performance is superb.
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Qt is an IDE? Awesome! Where can I get it?
That was a joke.
“These tools are better than that thing built with other tools” is a strange statement. I’m not disagreeing with the sentiment that VS would have better performance if it had been built with Qt instead of the .NET Framework. I’m objecting to the weird statement used to express this sentiment.
Honestly, this thread has gone on way too long. The choice was made, the deed is done, if you really want a scripting language then add it and move on.
[=;126379]
Any chance to actually support this with some reliable data? Because I know for a fact and I’ve provided link to research done by Google, that Java is at best 370% slower than C++ and at worse 1260%. Why would I want that?
Also C# nor Java for that matter DO NOT INCREASE productivity and that has been proven too.
So please provide some data to support your opinion.
Tend to disagree with him on that one. There is little point in producing whole lot of software which performs poorly.
Another point I’d like to make is that QUALITY should be the ultimate factor and C++ gives you better quality of virtually everything:
Expressiveness
Performance
Gaming experience due to the performance etc.
[/]
Don’t really want to be the guy to defend Java, but in most cases code performance in business applications (and that’s what Java is primarlirly used for) is irrelevant. Bottle necks are mostly databases or network traffic. These numbers just don’t hold up in the real world where code mostly just queries databases.
Of course nobody is going to write a AAA game engine in Java.
[=VegasRich;126507]
Qt is an IDE? Awesome! Where can I get it?
That was a joke.
“These tools are better than that thing built with other tools” is a strange statement. I’m not disagreeing with the sentiment that VS would have better performance if it had been built with Qt instead of the .NET Framework. I’m objecting to the weird statement used to express this sentiment.
[/]
[=;126592]
Just chiming in, Visual Assist makes VS Pro work like a beaut with UE4. Coding with ease now
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[=;126593]
+1 for visual assist. Can’t believe there was a time I was not using it.
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Yes, but can you use that with Express? Visual acting weird with UE4 is one of the reasons I’ve been sticking to Blueprints even though I’m (reasonably) comfortable in C++.
[=Veovis Muad’dib;126605]
Yes, but can you use that with Express? Visual acting weird with UE4 is one of the reasons I’ve been sticking to Blueprints even though I’m (reasonably) comfortable in C++.
[/]
You can’t I’m afraid, but VS Pro is quite cheap now. Or if you’re a student you can get it for free through Dreamspark?
[=DancingPeasant;126373]
I think it is amusing how some are bashing C#, considering how languages just like it (and Java) were invented for the very reason to illeviate the headaches of C++. Producitivity is worth more than performance - even Sweeney himself has said so.
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C# is not productive language, its much harder than C++ and uglier for complicated programs. Just because C++ has handsome macro system.
[=;128802]
C# is not productive language, its much harder than C++ and uglier for complicated programs. Just because C++ has handsome macro system.
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[=wsf;128807]
macroses in c++ can lead to undefined behaviour
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+200 for this - templates, not macros! I HATE macros. I can’t even count the times that some jack *** used a macro and didn’t add a brace, or some other little bull **** thing and it lead to hours of debugging hell. Macros are a HACK. If you understand C++ then you will never need them. Probably the only thing I don’t really care for in UE4 - the boilerplate macros. This could be templatized.
I work in C#, C++, Lua, Java, or whatever gets the job done fastest. Any language is only as productive as the coder using it - if you’re unproductive then you’re unproductive. Understand: the problem is YOU. If you’re not familiar with the language, you should probably solve the problem in one you are familiar with.
There are differences in run-time performance, but for most applications it isn’t as important as you would think. As long as you’re not computing a SHA-1 hash of a 32 gigabyte file every frame in Lua you should be okay.
Smart coders are productive - the rest cry about problems with the language.
[=;126379]
Any chance to actually support this with some reliable data? Because I know for a fact and I’ve provided link to research done by Google, that Java is at best 370% slower than C++ and at worse 1260%. Why would I want that?
[/]
Because in all probability you’re not doing anything that needs that kind of speed.
Games in Unity usually use C# (or UnityScript, or Boo) for their game logic, and last I checked, they don’t exactly run at a snail’s pace on my machine.
[=furrykef;129396]
Because in all probability you’re not doing anything that needs that kind of speed.
Games in Unity usually use C# (or UnityScript, or Boo) for their game logic, and last I checked, they don’t exactly run at a snail’s pace on my machine.
[/]
If I have option a - run 200% faster (at least) and option b - run 200% slower (at best), I use option a - every time.
C# doesn’t give you anything, takes virtually everything from you. Why would I want that?
And people who say, hey I don’t need 200% performance increase (at least), and I am happy with my slo-mo creature (be it java, javascript, lua, c# or other unmentionables)? To me they are exactly the same type of people who drive opel corsa (or similar) and when they see someone driving Ferrari they say: hey I don’t need that speed, why would I want that if my opel corsa gets the job done and moves me from A to B? Yeah, sure…
