(VIDEO) UE4's Geometry Mode is inadequate when compared with that of Quake 1

General Feedback & Requests
146

Not making a AAA game doesn’t mean you need to make your game out of BSP, which given that Indies have done it without having to use BSP it’s clear that BSP isn’t necessary for indies to be successful. Not that BSP is an advantage in the first place anyways. It seems it’s only a way of working that some people prefer and not something that’s really going to improve game development.

And by the way, the team that worked on Gears of War 1 was extremely small, like 20 people I believe, being indie doesn’t mean you can’t have a complete game of high quality. And again, BSP doesn’t necessarily make it easier, because you can still do what you need to with a 3D app and it’s not going to take longer. As evidenced by the many games that do that already.

147

[=;442591]
I think it’s lazy for people to want Epic to put time into developing a simply because they don’t want to use tools outside of the editor. Someone isn’t rude just because they disagree with you.
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Again with assumptions and putting down others. Great job you are doing there Mr. Moderator, representative of Epic.

What people want is basic tools for level creation that they should not need to use external tools for.

Seriously, WT hell are you still in thread? Just to pick fights? You don’t want the , fine. Let those that do discuss what they want.

148

[=;442607]
Not that BSP is an advantage in the first place anyways.
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Oh, it is - you don’t need to know a 3D apps. If you are a programmer who isn’t an artist, you can make your maps with BSP and they will still look good. In other words, you can have entire game made without artists, then use it to either pitch to an investor/publisher and get a team of artists finishing it up, or pitch it to the community and find artists to join you.

[=;442607]
And by the way, the team that worked on Gears of War 1 was extremely small, like 20 people I believe, being indie doesn’t mean you can’t have a complete game of high quality. And again, BSP doesn’t necessarily make it easier, because you can still do what you need to with a 3D app and it’s not going to take longer. As evidenced by the many games that do that already.
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Yep, small team called Epic Games, strapped with cash, lots of it. We, garage indies, work days jobs that suck out energy of us and all we have is 2-3 hrs at evening and maybe on weekends. If you think most indies are single teens living in parent’s basement and doing nothing but working on games all day - think again, and hard.

So, I think, to stop from escalating into anything and wasting people’s time, Epic needs to say whether they have time / desire to deal with it or should we ask again maybe in the Q4 of 2016. I bet no one will drop UE4 because the tools aren’t coming soon.

Also, there is tool: http://www.protoolsforunity3d.com/probuilder/ for Unity, and last time I heard they intend bringing it to UE4. Maybe Epic can help make it happen sooner ?

149

[=arbopa;442611]
Again with assumptions and putting down others. Great job you are doing there Mr. Moderator, representative of Epic.

What people want is basic tools for level creation that they should not need to use external tools for.

Seriously, WT hell are you still in thread? Just to pick fights? You don’t want the , fine. Let those that do discuss what they want.
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By the way, moderators do not represent Epic. If you don’t want an argument then stop with the hostility and at least try to have a reasonable discussion as I have.

150

[=;442613]
Oh, it is - you don’t need to know a 3D apps. If you are a programmer who isn’t an artist, you can make your maps with BSP and they will still look good.
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What skills does a programmer have that suddenly using BSP gives them the ability to design something that looks good that doesn’t require the skills of a 3D artist?

I don’t get how people think that 3D modeling doesn’t require 3D modeling skills and BSP will somehow avoid the need for that type of skill.

151

[=;442624]
What skills does a programmer have that suddenly using BSP gives them the ability to design something that looks good that doesn’t require the skills of a 3D artist?

I don’t get how people think that 3D modeling doesn’t require 3D modeling skills and BSP will somehow avoid the need for that type of skill.
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You don’t get the difference between Lego and traditional sculpting.

You need to own 3DS or Maya, and then you need to learn it. You need to learn Blender, which for whatever reason has steeper learning curve. Where on Earth do you have time to learn everything ?!

Do you need to learn 3D modeling skills (which happen to also require UV mapping) to block out level in UE4? No, you do not. Nether did people who made Unreal, Quake, Doom, RTCW, etc. (older BSP based games). Texturing brushes doesn’t require UV mapping. So make a textures cube with 6 sides only takes so much time with BSP. It takes longer in 3D app. And once you need to adjust volume of the cube, you have to adjust UV maps in 3D app. You don’t have to with BSP brushes.

It would be more productive if you have used both, 3D app and BSP level editor. Then you’d know the difference.

On another note, it doesn’t have to be BSP brushes per se. It can be meshes (with auto UV mapping like brushes in Hammer/Radiant), but with tools like ProBuilder (and 3D grid snapping like in Trenchbroom) and decent real-time CSG inside of UE4.

152

[=;442623]
By the way, moderators do not represent Epic. If you don’t want an argument then stop with the hostility and at least try to have a reasonable discussion as I have.
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Yes, it is Epic’s forum, thus those they pick to moderate are representatives of the site and thus Epic.

If I don’t want an argument then stop with the hostility??? You are the one that has done nothing for two days except cause hate on thread, calling people lazy, and refusing to even consider the views of anyone but yourself. You haven’t had a discussion, you have been talking down to all those you disagree with, non stop.

Sorry, I don’t play little games like you are trying to pull off, you are being condescending and argumentative. Perhaps moderating on a political debate forum would be more your style.

153

[=;442623]
By the way, moderators do not represent Epic. If you don’t want an argument then stop with the hostility and at least try to have a reasonable discussion as I have.
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You’re charged with moderating discussions on Epic’s behalf. Acting on behalf of (“representing”) Epic is literally your job on here. Not well, because you’ve been being hostile and then pretending you weren’t - basically saying " in <group> is lazy", and then “I didn’t say you were lazy, <member of group>!”. You’re strawmanning and derailing so much that I almost think you’re deliberately trying to clog up the thread with garbage so that it sinks or is locked and you “win” (is there an internet word for that?).

Anyway, I’ve said basically a few different times already: there’s no point anybody talking to you in here. You’ve been reading without absorbing, with a view to refuting rather than discussing. If you want to continue the discussion, you need to get up to speed, so just go back to page one and start again, time in good faith. Either that or you need to bow out. You’re being destructive to an important discussion. Let another moderator handle thread.

154

I made handy list!

People in thread who are in favor of improved geometry tools as we’re describing:

me
dishwasher

rpotter
sonkim
soulroll
wanderer_eternal

arbopa
ruhton

taz0

skytram
**motorstep

**People in thread who are **against **or even just unconvinced **about **improved geometry tools as we’re describing:

errvald
kurylo

**networking

**25 to 7, yet the entire last couple pages has been argument, so you guys constitute an insanely vocal minority​.

155

[=;442639]

**The entire last couple pages has been argument, so you guys constitute an insanely vocal minority​.
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That’s how they ‘win’ (in their minds). Man I wish there was a like button, I’d hit it 100 times for your post prior to one.

156

G’day,

I can see thread heading towards the Godwin’s Law threshold.
As such, I feel the time has come to close the discussion.

If you feel I am error, please contact an Epic staff member, such as , to have it reviewed and unlocked.

Have a good one!

157

[=;198123]
Hey Joe

is an area that Epic is very aware that the community would like to see improved. topic has come up a number of times before and there are plans to address in a future release of the engine. There is no specific timeline at the moment of when will be redone, but it is on the “To do” list.

If you’re not familiar with our public Trello board for UE4 tasks you can take a look here and see it’s listed at Geometry 2.0: Trello

There is a add-on for the Unity Engine, Pro Builder, that the creator of that plugin is looking to port over as a plugin for UE4 which you can see in forums post: https://forums.unrealengine.com/showthread.php?22230-quot-ProBuilder-quot-for-Unreal-4-Marketplace

Thanks,

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[=;198597]
Hey guys,

Let’s try and turn topic around to it’s original purpose of what we would like to see improved with BSP/CSG within the engine. I know area can be a bit contentious at times, but let’s take away the positives and what Epic can consider for Geometry 2.0. While not uses BPS/CSG in the editor, that’s not say that they could not use some improvements. Again, is an area Epic intends to focus some effort on in the future, and having good constructive points, similar to Joe’s video, help focus in areas that are most important to the community of developers we have here. The good and the bad feedback is always welcomed. :slight_smile:

There have been some great ideas thus far and I think put together a very straight forward video to explain his point and what functionality he would like to see added.

Let’s try and stay on topic with instead of spiraling into a debate about what makes a game developer a game developer. There are a lot of people in the games industry who got their start with community Mods. I believe there are some here at Epic that came from that background, level designers even. Anyone who wants to take the time to “mod” and put forth effort into any type of game development deserves the respect.

Thanks ! :slight_smile:

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[=;199138]
Thanks for taking the time to put all of together. We know BSP is important to a lot of developers and that BSP has some rough edges that could be filed upon. As mentioned (thanks !), Geometry 2.0 is something on our roadmap, and sort of candid feedback is valuable when approaching it as a future in Unreal Engine.
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[= ;348241]
Hi ,

If you have specific functions or features that you would like to see in Geometry Editor 2.0, we are interested in hearing your thoughts! Please make sure to post them here:

I have a request in as UE-13088 that is collecting these suggestions and have updated the request to reflect an increase in developers interested in functionality. does not guarantee that it will be immediately looked at but it does help to know how many developers want specific features and what specifically they are looking for. Thank you for great information and post, !
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Just to get back on track, and the responses from Epic showing they know is an and a concern to many users and want to make it better. Make sure to add any suggestions to the thread linked… it’s already full of loads of great ideas.

158

Hi,

First, thank you for closing the thread and giving me us a to speak to privately.

Second, I’m reopening thread because it because feedback and requests are what these forums are all about. Developers at Epic do see what you are asking for and it’s important to us that the conversation about Geometry 2.0 keep going.

Third, I expect on these forums to be respectful of each-other and professional. We are all here to see UE4 grow.

159

Thanks and and !

I’m going to be testing Probuilder and probably SabreCSG for Unity in the next few days so I’ll probably have a bunch of observations on how they’re better/worse than/on par with UE4’s tools and how they compare with Hammer.

Speaking of Hammer, HammUEr is trying to come out before Christmas! And it’s Christmas Eve now, so…

160

I would like a more powerful BSP editor within UE4. I know building an entire level out of BSP is not ideal; but you can build a skeleton of your level using BSP. I can model and UV map in blender and 3DSmax, but I am not an expert in those areas. I find BSPs more to my taste. Developing the level in a separate 3d package and then importing it into UE4 is prone to a lot of problems. If you are playing with the level’s layout, you will have to swicth between both editors and do the export/import very frequently which I do not like. When I was working with UDK, I usually build skeleton of the entire level in BSP and later furnish it with static meshes.

I believe in giving people options.

That being said, if more people are asking for some other than a more powerful BSP editor, that should be Epic’s priority.

161

blinks I am beyond words by some of the insane and flat out rude reponces by of all people a mod. I for one would love to see the BSP/Geo tools updated a little. I don’t think anyone here once said that they need to be on the level of Maya/3DSM. Also since when is wanting fast prototyping tools/features bad? I do 3D work, I work with shaders, levels etc. I’m self taught and I would rather be able to make a simple design/concept in the engine to see if I like it then go in to Maya model it, make sure the UV’s are right, texture it, export it and then hope that I didn’t mess up something in the process cause one thing I have noticed is when importing models and you overlook one little thing either while importing or forgetting to click something on the export menu it takes WAY TO LONG. So before going on saying that people who want better BSP tools to map stuff out quickly have no talent with 3D art is outright insulting esepcially coming for a moderator. As for “just use assets that are modeled” like it’s been said sometimes artists who make said assets go on leave or have to leave the project cause of whatever reason so “waiting for the artist to make it” is not always the answer cause I for a bit felt the same forgetting my roots of modding levels when I was younger and it delayed my project my team is working on by a year.

So I think it is safe to say that asking Epic to look in to improving said tools a little is not much to ask. As for your insulting and only replies being completely negative honestly bothers me cause until now I have felt that the Unreal Forums to be one of the best if not the best communities for any engine and I have used a lot of engines since 1998 and in one thread you have made me rethink of wanting to be apart of it. It’s mods like you that makes people and small teams leave and not want to even ask for help or advise. Discraceful.

162

Epic should just build a complete, robust 3D editor package inside UE4 on par with or Maya. I’m only 1/5th serious.

163

[=Oul;442761]
Epic should just build a complete, robust 3D editor package inside UE4 on par with or Maya. I’m only 1/5th serious.
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If it is geared towards level design instead of trying to be “everything at once” like ye average modeling package, it actually can turn into attractive tool that would bring more users to the engine.

However, it would make sense to fix BSP problems first and only then look for a ways to go beyond that.

164

Unreal’s current BSP system really needs to be deprecated entirely and replaced with a new system, which I believe is the plan. Which is great, but it’s probably going to be a while :stuck_out_tongue:

165

[=Oul;442761]
Epic should just build a complete, robust 3D editor package inside UE4 on par with or Maya. I’m only 1/5th serious.
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Eventhough is an unlikely extreme, it would still be a more favorable one than the opposite extreme the tools are in now. But no one is really asking for such tools anyway. What I believe most people in thread want is for the tool (geo 2.0) to atleast support complete blocking out of levels without going back and forth from UE4 - 3D package. To a degree you can do that today, but goodluck doing that today without going . (thank you ze0rb for SuperGrid)

In UDK I accepted the state of BSP because I accepted that the engine was being built for AAA anyway (AAA will extend the tools to their needs) and UDK was an afterthought. UE4 is being marketed to , from a solo hobbyist, a modder (UT4/ARK) to AAA studios and everything in-between. The tools should accommodate and the minority opposing that Epic spend resources towards building tool should consider that might just be the most significant improvement Epic can make to grow UE4’s share in the < AAA space. As for expecting to adopt your “perfect” pipeline is just silly and isn’t even what many AAA studios consider the right pipeline. UE4 can be more AAA and more Indie than any other engine without having to be one more than the other. If UE4 grows, we all benefit. :slight_smile:

[=Keiyentai;442721]
As for your insulting and only replies being completely negative honestly bothers me cause until now I have felt that the Unreal Forums to be one of the best if not the best communities for any engine and I have used a lot of engines since 1998 and in one thread you have made me rethink of wanting to be apart of it. It’s mods like you that makes people and small teams leave and not want to even ask for help or advise. Discraceful.
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Also , very much . I normally hate to jump on someone that’s already being cornered but the behaviour by a mod (imo) representing Epic in thread is highly unprofessional and unacceptable.