Nanite Performance is Not Better than Overdraw Focused LODs [TEST RESULTS]. Epic's Documentation is Dangering Optimization.

Development Platform & Builds Debugging, Optimization, & Profiling
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I’ve bitten by tongue so often with this.

So your 5 years of game dev makes you more knowledgeable than the engineers that wrote it - often having 30-40 years of assembly and c++ knowledge and deep understanding of not only low level rendering, threading, compositing, buffering and HLSL - not to mention the various operating systems/devices/internet etc. Have been in the industry since it started, have been writing 3D code since before 3D acceleration, following all the advances in CPU instructions, followed all the gfx cards right back from the ATIs and S3s and watched how they have progressed and been enhanced…

It’s like we’re all walking up a hill - these people have laid out the path for you to easily climb - they’re way up the hill from you - their view of the surroundings is a lot larger than yours, they have had a lot of practice and experience - they can also see the higher parts of the hill a lot more clearly from where they are.

But if you want to continue feeling like you know best - go ahead - I get the feeling none of what I’ve just said will actually make any difference - you’ve already cashed in on popularity by your complaining and turning it into a conspiracy theory.

Bottom line though - UE5.4 is the best engine so far by a large amount - if you don’t want to use Nanite don’t - if you don’t want to use TAA don’t - they’re options.

A real game developer isn’t usually spending their time shouting about the injustice of it all - they’re usually quiet with their head down making what they want to do work with appreciation for the engine base to work with.

I don’t think you have much of an idea of how modern businesses work and any real idea of money and work forces. Let alone the vision to look into the future.

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I said what I wanted to say. I didn’t think you would be able to actually comprehend or acknowledge it - falling on closed ears. You’re too fired up with your own importance.

In a perfect world the unicorns would be farting rainbows.

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Farting Rainbows is a term for what you’re doing in this topic - chasing a perceived cause on an electronic soapbox, usually by ignorant people.

A Unicorn is a developer who is intimate with many facets of development, often also having a high level of artist ability.

In a perfect world, it would be people like that who would be constructively pursuing the goals - in fact, this does happen, but often in private groups.

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Why do you talk about yourself in the third person? We know that “Threat Interactive” is your YouTube channel, just like your Reddit username is TrueNextGen. I don’t get why you’re hiding behind different pseudonyms.

You say you’ve studied rendering systems for five years? And what exactly have you done? Watched a few GDC talks, wasted time on places like fucktaa and others, but nothing concrete beyond that? You talk a lot, you complain a lot, but why don’t you take action? You don’t need billions of dollars to improve LOD systems or add SMAA to an engine, especially when you claim to have five years of experience with rendering systems.

Epic (and the industry in general) isn’t going to change. In 10 years, TAA will still be around, and Epic won’t roll back on it. Systems like Nanite and mesh shaders aren’t going anywhere either in fact, they’ll likely be integrated into many engines in the coming years. Ray tracing, with all the challenges it brings, will only become more prevalent. Either you work with these technologies, modify and add what you need, and make the right compromises, or move on to something else.

It’s important to stay grounded in reality.

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181

I didn’t go very far in this thread, came across this post then jumped to the bottom.

Nanite was advertised for video game development. It’s advantage was to dramatically reduce development effort by not requiring the creation of LOD levels manually.

But this thread is just beating a dead horse senseless. Epic is doing with Nanite what it wants to do with Nanite. If someone thinks they are lying, then find another engine.

One year of complaining…

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What does others have to do with your complaining about one feature for over a year? Do other people control you? Is that what you are saying?

A whole year on one issue… SMH

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Maybe we’re trying to point out a behavior you’re exhibiting that’s counter productive to yourself and the community. Good luck ever finding employment - the internet is searched by prospective employers and you’re pretty much showing everyone you’re not a team player.

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Your explanation makes no f***ing sense, you’re the one founding the thing but you’re not actually behind it? You express yourself the same way everywhere, spamming with links to your videos. You seem lost, maybe you want to become a YouTube clickbaiter it’s your choice, but don’t hide behind 600 accounts, one will be enough.

Also, you haven’t answered everything else how is it that after 5 years of practice and analysis as a graphics engineer, you’re not able to implement such basic features like SSMA and other stuff? With so much expertise, it’s very easy.

And no need to talk about billions and other things, it’s ridiculous. There’s absolutely no need for that to implement these kinds of features.

For over 2 years, you haven’t made any progress on your game project not a single image, not a single video blaming it on the idea that it’s impossible to create a game because of TAA, and now Nanite (and probably something else tomorrow).

It makes no sense, a real business, not an amateur project created with strangers on Discord, work like that.

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I’m getting great results with nanite, lumen, vsm and taa - they look beautiful and perform well above my target framerate :slight_smile: Not sure what you’re doing wrong.

Your behavior of belittling any person arguing your point (or just deleting their comments) just shows us all we need to know. You’re not mature enough to take any regard of what you say. All your imaginary friends and fake accounts just make it worse.

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So why ask for almost 1 million dollars if you’ve already implemented new methods? Why not let the entire industry benefit if you’ve developed new anti-aliasing techniques that surpass what’s been done so far? I think everyone will be attentive to that and it will push the industry forward. So, when’s the talk happening?

No, you’re not the most valuable person for Epic. The issues with TAA aren’t new, and the industry doesn’t care because, in the end, it’s a very good solution that eliminates all the flickering problems that older forms of AA suffer from and covers a wide variety of geometry. If the recent introduction of PSSR hasn’t made you realize that this will remain the standard for the next generation, then you have a serious ego problem and a lack of understanding of where things are headed. You should have been against it 10 years ago when the first temporal anti-aliasing solutions were introduced. Now, it’s too late there’s no going back, given the amount of money invested in it.

All you’re doing in the end is like striking a sword in the ocean completely pointless and ineffective.

You can already start protesting against frame generation, which will most likely become the next standard in most games with its introduction in the PS6, without a doubt.

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There’s always problems along the way :slight_smile:

When there’s a problem - I find a solution, or an alternative way of doing it - I don’t expect the world to change just for me.

I’m just trying to help you pull your head out of your a$$ - put that talent you have to better use. Listen to what Maenavia said about it being here to stay - and it’s just going to get better and better.

Have a bit more vision for the future and accept that the evolution of technology isn’t at the rate we’d like - we need to be patient. It’s not like the engineers working on UE are just sitting around twiddling their thumbs - there’s some amazing tech coming in 5.5 in the way of GPU instancing and GPU light baking, along with Nanite skeletal meshes - the future is looking bright.

I think we all share the same dream of virtual worlds being indistinguishable from the real thing - we just need to be patient, and accept that there are a lot of people working on these things with a lot more depth of experience.

Yelling/Crying at them isn’t going to make a slight bit of difference.

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191

That doesn’t prevent you from showcasing the progress made around a solution in R&D. Who knows, it might even inspire other developers, and maybe even developers at Epic.

Ten years ago, it was already the same issue : some artifacts, blurriness at lower resolutions with TXAA. Not much has changed since then.

That’s good, it’s a start, but it probably won’t change anything. Frame generation will most likely be the standard for a huge portion of games in the future, and it might even be impossible to disable. I wouldn’t be surprised if Epic introduces their own in-house solution with UE6 (in addition to Sony’s and Microsoft’s solutions).

So yes, there are improvements to be made. Personally, I play in 4K, and with or without upscaling, the temporal issues don’t cause any problems the image is very good. But at lower resolutions, typically 1080p, it’s quite mediocre (depending on the title, but nothing extraordinary). I doubt the industry as a whole will make progress unless there’s a real game changer in anti-aliasing. And since we’re moving towards AI-based solutions (even FSR seems to be heading that way for version 4), we’re not likely to see temporal methods disappear anytime soon, especially with ray-tracing denoising, which is also temporal.

I recently played Star Wars Outlaws, which runs on Snowdrop, and all the GI and reflections are ray-traced. Even while playing in 4K with DLAA, it was blurry, whereas The Division 1 and 2 are sharp.

I also played Alan Wake 2 at launch with no RT, which doesn’t use Unreal but Remedy’s engine, and it was extremely demanding. I even had to play on balanced mode with frame generation to get a good framerate, especially when the screen was packed with particles and other effects. People talk about Unreal and its heaviness, but all engines are like that. Most games are becoming more and more demanding.

We can also add the Frostbite engine, which is extremely demanding on Dead Space Remake. Good luck running it at native 4K at 60fps, even with an RTX 4080.

Even Naughty Dog’s engine is incredibly heavy on PC it’s unbelievable.

You’re focusing on Unreal, but it’s no better elsewhere you just have to deal with it.

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192

I gotta say, I don’t know who has the issues here, the troll, or the ones feeding him.

SMH

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Hmm disabling nanite gave me 10% to 25% (30% compared to tess) fps with VSM on and without using it on foliage which would be even worse. Makes me reevaluate things for the type of project I am making.

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At least the source-code isn’t too long.

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Have you tried building a game with Nanite, TSR, and VSM’s where you have control over the systems? I’ve recently been extremely satisfied with Nanite, Lumen and VSM’s getting above ~94FPS with TSR enabled at Native 1440p with nanite foliage EVERYWHERE.

I only found optimizations because I’ve been working on a game that I wanted to push some boundaries with.

Nanite isn’t very well documented it seems. I definitely aired some frustration here and on your other thread. But as it stands right now, I am thoroughly satisfied with even more optimizations to be implemented. I’ve been working with it long enough to be certain that I know enough about the system to configure it properly for any project I want to develop with it. This is from: trial and error, reading source code, and watching the unreal youtube channel.

One thing you can’t do when working with these systems is to expect the epic devs to provide you with the perfect configurations and setup for your project. My games code adjust the settings for TSR and Nanite based on the screen percentage. This allows me to avoid wasting resources on things that were increased to account for upscaling. This greatly improves native performance while maintaining the level of quality.

My nanite memory usage cvars were also greatly reduced from the default settings as well as enabling and disabling certain functionality where needed to improve performance.

What it all boils down to is understanding that:

  • Nanite isn’t a one click solution. It requires you to tailor your level assets to fit with nanite as well as configuring the internal systems through CVARS so that the engine can render YOUR assets efficiently.
  • Lumen isn’t a one click solution. It requires you to configure the scalability settings to fit your projects requirements.

All in all, developing a game is the only real way to tell you what you can expect from Nanite, Lumen, VSM’s and TSR.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that Epic introduced a way to scale MaxPixelsPerEdge on a per static mesh level. This allowed me to greatly decrease the settings of some assets while maintaining higher quality on more important assets.

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And who’s to say I’m not already working on it?

Okay, yes please let us know when your game engine is finished. We are dying to know, mostly because it means we won’t hear further complaints from you.

I’ve been studying game production for more than 5 years and far from being a kid. I don’t need to have 10 years of a experience to tell if systems are COMPLETE botchery. It’s people like Brian Karis who have that “years of experience” who brought the insanely smeary TAA into unreal because and excused the massive ghosting in the scene that revealed his crap.

While I have it, I don’t NEED 10 years of experience to tell you that AI isn’t needed for BASIC image quality. I don’t need 10 years experience to tell you that Death Stranding looks WORSE because it had an engine downgrade in the AA department.

So like…don’t use it? lmao
And TAA doesn’t use AI…
here you are again, complaining about all these OPTIONAL features. Do you understand what a game engine is? Its a blank slate. Its a canvas for you to create your game with. It provides tons of OPTIONAL features that you can use, or not use, how you see fit for your specific use case. You aren’t required to use Nanite, TAA, DLSS, and if you chose to forgo them, you would be in the exact same shape as you were before they were introduced.

And we shouldn’t have SYSTEMS in unreal DEPEND on a system that is massively slower

So turn TAA off if you don’t want it. Easy fix.

I’m the most valuable person Epic has atm because I’m not here to COTTLE the bs mess their causing

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

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Maybe I have this wrong. Does nanite in general help with draw calls so much that you don’t need to instance assets when you’re using it? Thanks.

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To the best of my knowledge, and based on Epic’s Unreal educational videos, you still want to instance your meshes. “Nanite is super-good at instancing.”

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Do we still need to virtualize textures? Do I still need master materials? Is trying to reduce draw calls still a thing? Do I need to pack UVs still? Should I still merge meshes into static mesh chunks in the environment? I’m sure all these methods exist but are they worth the time with nanite and lumen now a thing?