I don’ think the majority users to go for BSP design , but instead more terrain outdoors or imported modeled environments. Why developping some specific to please one or two persons neeeding it ?
you could make Quake with models based levels and amazig graphics but keeping same artistic touch and same gameplay, it’s not a matter of BSP.
The problem is that you think you are speaking on behalf of a lot of people, and the plain and simple truth is that you aren’t. You are speaking for yourself and trying to make your point by making it sound like lots of people are irritated because the BSP toolset is “lacking”. I notice you keep using the phrase that doing something that takes time is a real “chor”, which I can only assume you mean “chore” but English is not your first language. I don’t know if you realized it by now, but a lot of the work you have to do that is involved in the entire 3d art and game making process is very tedious and time consuming. Once could say it feels like a real chore. You know what? That’s completely true, but everyone else realizes that you have bite the bullet and do “chore” over and over again until you get your final product. There is no cutting corners or finding a way to get around putting in real, time consuming, one could say even rather annoying, hard work.
It’s as simple as that. If you don’t want to work to make what you want, you need to either be prepared to shell out a lot of money so someone can do all the work (read: real chore) for you, or you are simply going to have to do the work yourself. Getting upset and blaming Epic for making you have to do work is absolutely absurd and actually quite comical.
Maybe people aren’t using BSP so much, because Unreal’s BSP tools have never been very good/optimized? Unreal has already had amazing graphical features for years, now it’s time to spend a little time updating the BSP system/tools that have practically been the same since the beginning. You don’t want Epic to cater to more oldschool mappers, and just to your needs(the mainstream pipeline)? Epic will be supported more, if more people use their engine, you know. You people who prefer using external programs for the standard static mesh pipeline have nothing to lose from improved BSP tools… The more ability/flexibility the editor/engine has(=tool integration), the less time & money we will waste working with external programs.
is a very poor argument. If tools are not intuitive, then they are slow, and they need improved. Do you think the first versions, or even second or third, are always the best? 
Unreal is only in it’s 4th version. A lot of actual work done today in game development is dealing with technicalities, such as figuring out correct formats to import/export with, figuring out how a certain tool works, arranging layers, etc. We would be pumping out better content, faster, if things were improved significantly. Look back on things in 10 years, and you’ll see how bad it was.
The only people who have a problem with the tools seem to be inexperienced users, if something was slow, then the power users would be complaining about it because it would have an even bigger effect on workflow.
Exact zero people protesting against BSP tools, you will find zero BSP-Haters on forum.
There is only 2 type of people in thread:
- Who uses BSP as intended and want to improve tool and add new features
- Who misuses BSP as old-schooled level creation system and want to turn tool into some sort of extended minecrafty geometry creator
No one hates BSP, stop making drama around tool.
Have you read the documentation?
.unrealengine/latest/INT/Engine/Actors/Brushes/index.html
I agree woth . Everyone would want them to improve on their BSP tool. I personally find them very easy and robust to use, but that might be a personal prefernce.
To keep topic constructive, could you perhaps set some geometry as a benchmark, something specific you are struggling with. And perhaps we can break it down and see what kind of feedback to give to Epic. It might just be that you have missed a couple of features 
Any one knows if the longer and sometimes long undo with BSP is a bug or limitation of the technology?
Speed mapping, my new word 
How is my argument poor? Never did I say that the tools are not intuitive. My point was that and as it sounds now, you, both want to avoid doing any kind of work at all so you want Epic to pander to you so you can avoid doing it. What I was suggesting was that you two quit complaining and just do what everyone else does with great toolset that’s been provided for us for very little cost and actually work to make your game.
And I’m sick of working with tools that could(and should) be better, is my point. It’s “positive” feedback, heh. Defending something merely because it’s the “standard method” that some engine creator (Epic) designed is no good.
You can do a lot with Unreal’s BSP tools, yes, but you can do a lot more, a lot easier, with other engine’s tools.
My problem with , is/are the intended uses. Yes, Unreal is clearly designed/optimized for heavy static mesh use…so now it’s time for the BSP to get improved(so we aren’t “misusing” it anymore, like the previous Unreal games did so much).
Have you actually used the tools in UE4 yet? A few days back I remember you saying that you had only used UDK. I’m obviously not saying that better tools aren’t welcome (and I never used UDK so I am unsure how they differ), but I just think you need to at least try them out before dismissing them.
CT007,
Another problem with your argument is that you want new tools before even trying the existing tools. You said in your earlier posts that you havent tried UE4’s BSP brushes and you haven’t even tried UE4 yet. Your own words;
I don’t think anyone can give feedback on something they haven’t used.
I dont want to sound harsh but i wish you spent the time for typing 26 posts on actually trying UE4 and then giving constructive feedback.
Btw, if you want to learn more and see more on BSP usage you can follow UT develeopment and Twitch streams.
I haven’t bought the editor yet, no, but from all the videos and documents I’ve seen of it, it’s mostly the same old BSP system, same old tools, except with live adding/subtracting. You still can’t do a lot of shapes easily, from what I can tell.
Can you post links to these places you’re talking about? Thanks
I don’t understand what you mean by ‘live adding/subtracting’. You can make a shape, place it in the level, and set it to be additive or subtractive, which allows you to carve or add to any shape. You can also alt+drag an item to duplicate it, as well as its additive or subtractive properties, allowing you to quickly replicate and re-use assets, or adding granular detail.
I use BSP’s heavily, and haven’t run into an with blocking out a level, or carving out detail. I then convert the BSP’s to meshes, and into another 3D editing suite. You shouldn’t knock it before you try it!
In the previous engines, up to UE2 at least, you have a ‘builder brush’, and you must ‘add’ or ‘subtract’ it after placing it where you want, and often ‘rebuild geometry’ to see the final results. In UE4, the effect of the added/subtracted brushes are ‘live’, and the results are instant; no ‘build geometry’ required, or add/subtract command each time, it seems. Or, I’m very wrong … :rolleyes: So, the process of using BSP has definitely improved, but perhaps not the shaping complexity(not as good as the Quake editors, quite possibly, at least).
My point about BSP is that I want to make more complex shapes, and make them easier… Most people only use BSP for basic blockouts(as is their suggested use currently) But I will see what I can do with the tools, after I get a-hold of them. Maybe I’ll start a thread about what’s possible with the tools, and everyone can post their best efforts/examples as well.
The 2D shape editor does not exist anymore, correct? Has that functionality been replaced, or simply removed?
You gotta be honest though. I’ve seen the corners and (by far the largest) the undo problem with the engine freezing brought up more than once. I like the bsp tools and don’t have a problem with them other than those two issues.
That should definitely be fixed then, that could be an that affects more than just BSP since other things use brushes as well. And people still do block out levels even if they aren’t doing more than making block shapes.
Hey folks- “” referred me over . Having access to fast, intuitive and truly useful/powerful geometry creation tools, in-editor, has always been extremely important to me- prototyping a game without that is just far too slow and/or frustrating, in my experience. Certainly modern games don’t make as much (if any) use of “BSP” geo for final art, but early development can always benefit from a quick, fluid prototyping workflow, which can only be had right in-engine.
Several years back, I moved into Unity development, found there was a complete lack of workflow option (nothing at all!). lead to me creating “ProBuilder”, which I intended to be a mash-up of my experience in 3DS , Unreal, and Hammer. We (tech dev and I) are constantly developing and expanding the tool, and it’s come quite a ways! If interested, you can check out a somewhat old (sorry) video :
Currently, I am looking at porting ProBuilder over to UE4, for the upcoming Marketplace, and am very interested in all thoughts/feedback/questions/etc. It’ll be a major undertaking, but receiving lots of positive responses so far, so we might just take it on!
I have started a thread and Poll , appreciate any replies:
https://forums.unrealengine/showthread.php?22230-quot-ProBuilder-quot-for-Unreal-4-Marketplace&p=102307#post102307
Thanks, I hope is of interest!
Sigh… don’t you wish every single wall / floor didn’t have to be a mesh? is Unreal Engine or the Autodesk Importing Engine ?
So level designers are expected to be 3D modeling artists these days now? … wow, I guess I got out when mapping used to be a ‘fun process’.
I think the funniest part is all the BSP hatrid that comes from the 3D experts , whats the point of Engine if all it does is cater to AAA game development teams, is the same argument as why use blueprint when C++ does everything you want? maybe I don’t want to get lost in Maya for the rest of my life, maybe people are annoyed because they don’t want 3D modeling programs shoved down their throats just because they want 4 walls and door with some basic textures.
Do a Google on how many static mesh problems with lighting people are having with engine, with BSP in older engines it just works, there’s no light bleeding from the corners or problems when you align two meshes together because there isn’t a problem to fix in the first place.
So do I have to just understand that you want to eliminate BSP altogether and make the engine as complex to learn as possible?
If an older editor like Radiant or Cube was catering the same way as Unreal was I would be onto that in a heartbeat, all you have to do is look at Steams Workshop in Source Games to see how useful BSP can be when used for final iterations, are you telling me that is out of date? some of the maps look amazing and didn’t take 3 years to create in a 3D modeling program and were made by ‘newbs’
3d modeling is a required skill for a level designer, other skills too, dunno if you were being sarcastic though…