I need to spill my guts out!

The law does not guarantee refunds. Saying it over and over again won’t make it any more real than claiming the sky is pink over and over would make that so. It really isn’t a difficult concept to grasp. You keep citing “the law” and yet those very laws defer to the policies and EULAs of each respective business. So which law are you referring to specifically that says a consumer is entitled to a refund no matter the companies policy or EULA? Because I can show you 50 individual state laws that declare otherwise. Laws which all participating parties are agreeing to abide by when agreeing to the EULA which provides for a clause referring a specific country (in this case the U.S.) as mentioned above. This is why people need to actually read what they’re agreeing to rather than checking the box and quickly clicking next. Ignorance is not an excuse under the law.

Except in the case of refunds and EULAs the laws specifically defer to what is set by the company. If a company says no refunds, then there are no refunds. If a company says refunds only in the case of a defective product, then you will only get a refund in the case of a defective product.

Nope, and there are precedents* - one of the reasons they are almost never upheld (in the case with almost all digital software) is because that in many cases a user cannot even read the agreement until after purchase and until the point of installation, which invalidates them automatically. They also invalidate themselves by being contracts of adhesion, or are otherwise subject to unconscionability. In the UK, the Unfair Contract Terms Act makes most EULAs hoisted on the end user completely pointless and ineffectual, and in the US, the Uniform Commercial Code can similarly make it very difficult to effect additional terms on the end user, particularly in the case of states that have ratified the Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act.

*Step-Saver Data Systems, Inc. v. Wyse Technology - Wikipedia - an example, wherein the 3rd Circuit ruled that ‘shrinkwrap’ licences (EULAs) are not legally binding in their entirety. This is an important precedent that has been used to subsequently decide other cases.

Steams refund policy exists as part of a ruling that their EULA terms were unenforceable with respect to refunds. I can now get a refund for a reason as spurious as ‘I did not like the game’.

I am pretty sure I can buy a 50" TV at Wallmart, use it for 7 days then send it back and tell them to give my money back at its entirety.
In my country you also can do the same, even though every single store says you can’t. Still, you can.

We’ve already covered that EULAs and refund polices are not binding if they were not communicated prior to purchase. This is already stated in law, and changes nothing as Epic’s marketplace satisfies that requirement. You do not agree to the EULA or refund policy after purchasing a product on the marketplace, but beforehand. Same goes with many other online digital distributors.

The Uniform Commercial Code is not law, but merely recommendations aimed at homogenizing the various state laws. States that have chosen to enact some of these recommendations almost always have had deviations from the initial text. One thing that all states do have in common though is there deference to business refund policies. is a list of all refund policies across the U.S. You will notice a common theme: *“There’s no right to cancel contracts or purchase agreements. Whether you can receive a refund is dependent on the retailer’s return and refund policies.”
*

This article also explains as such: *"While state laws primarily govern the of returned merchandise, there’s no federal law that requires a merchant to refund money. Per most state laws, refunds are subject to the established store refund policy at the time of purchase, unless the product purchased is found to be unfit for the purpose of which it was intended. A customer changing his or her mind after making a purchase, such as deciding they want a bigger television screen, is not the fault of the merchant and the merchant cannot be held responsible.

Generally speaking, most stores do offer refunds. It is usually pursuant to a store policy which explicitly that returns are extended, in order to create and keep good will in the community; but again, this is a store policy and not a federal law."*

http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/return-policies-and-refunds.html

Of course you can, because Walmart’s policy allows for a 90 day refund window on Televisions. You know what they don’t allow return on? Software delivered in non physical form. AKA anything that isn’t on a disc that they can receive back upon refund.

http://help.walmart.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/9/~/return-policy

I find the usage of analogies like “I bought a TV” tiring and irrelevant to the case in point.
it’s all apples and oranges . we really need to look at cases that include the following:

  • a digital product
  • a license with the rights to use the product
  • a license with the rights to include the product within another product

anything that falls short all of the above is pointless looking to as an example.

do not forget we’re all developers , and the point of the marketplace for consumers is to save development time, to reach a level of quality one wouldn’t achieve, and/or to save money (compared to hiring a personalized outsourcer), all in the spirit of using it in a larger project and/or for learning purposes. pretending that the product is ‘consumed’ at the moment of the purchase is entirely missing the big picture, the equivalent of saying that someone buys assets just to have them lying on their harddrive

Epic has a legal department. Why no word from them on this?

Edit: That’d be off topic though. Any reply from Epic on OP would still be appreciated.

The 90 days grace period is in their Eula because it is the law in many countries, not because Wallmart is cool.

Btw, thus is pretty dumb discussion. If buyer wants to return it, seller shouldn’t care about as long as the buyer is not a pirate. Can’t tell for sure who is pirate or not so you are obligated to act like nobody is.
Acting and enforcing eulas that assume everyone is a pirate won’t do any good to your sales.
The only thing I always ask is for people do not pirate products I put effort into. If they have no use for it, who am I to force them to keep it…

It doesn’t matter what the law is in any other county, Walmart is a U.S. based business. By using their products you agree to abide by U.S. law when it comes to legal matters, and the state law in which they reside says the refund policy of Walmart is binding. 90 days is only for certain electronics. Computers, tablets, drones, etc. are under a 15 day window. They provide zero refunds for digital content such as digitally distributed software or VOD. A 15 day period for other products such as video games if opened, cell phones, etc. I highly recommend you actually read up on this if you want to engage in a meaningful discussion about this topic, or even know what it is you are agreeing to when purchasing certain products.

In order for them to legally sell their products in my Country they agree to obey my country’s laws code of consumer protection; Although they are a US company. Otherwise their business would simply be banned from selling or opening shops .
That’s the point I think you don’t get.

The same for Sony, Microsoft, Ubi, etc.
They all agreed to obey our “Consumer Defense Code” so then they could sell their software .
Nintendo didn’t agree, so what happened? Nintendo was ‘invited to leave’ and there’s Nintendo games no more, unless ppl import themselves. If you want to go against largely adopted laws and codes of conduct, then go and close the storefront for all other countries too as well; make Marketplace sell only for USA developers then.

Sorry man, but that simply isn’t true. I don’t know what else to tell you, but I’ve already outlined why that isn’t the case in sufficient detail.

IIRC you are from Brazil, Nintendo stopped selling products there due to high tariffs among other things - not a refund policy.

There are countries that don’t have any copyright law… I assume if you was in one, you was now arguing you have the right to not only get refund for any reason but also redistribute the content you buy from Marketplace as well because your country allows it. This is unethical.

You assume wrong.
I didn’t say anything like that and have no idea where you came from with this.

Btw, I personally would simply quit selling any kind of software or digital asset if I can’t agree to how bad things are towards the seller, (unless you have deep pockets and packs of lawyers) there’s very little you can do. The buyer owns you, that’s how things are.

You have a very deep misunderstanding of how all of this works I’m afraid. =O Fortunately it has no bearings on the reality of how things operate.

There’s nothing to win in all honesty. What’s said in and what some choose to believe have no effect on the actual state of things. The thread does seem to have drifted from it’s original purpose. I personally don’t see a need to contribute to that any further.

To be honest there is a compromise that can appease both sides (customers and publishers). Over the last month or so I’ve seen at least two threads from customers feeling entitled to refunds because of inaccurate descriptions. I’ve also seen at least 4 threads from publishers displaying frustration over the refund policy. You could tighten up the refund policy which would help publisher, and yet up the description/screenshots/videos/demos requirements that would make it much easier to know what you are getting before you buy which would help customers.

Neither publishers/customers/host (Epic in this case) truly own the marketplace in the sense of control. Epic really only has the power to police a bit and shut it down, but they rely on 3rd party publishers to make content. Publishers will not publish if they don’t feel the market is viable whether through actual sales or policies, and customers will not make the market viable unless they see something of value there and feel a bit of safety. It’s the combination that make the market as a whole rise or fall and asserting that a particular party dictates everything is incorrect. They all have some element of control and some element of being out of control. There are plenty of places where common ground can be had to really make the marketplace grow like it should be. It’s honestly a blunder in many places why it hasn’t taken off but Epic’s competition’s has.

Currently there is no concrete solid refund policy that’s enforced equally for these 3 corners of the triangle you mentioned to stick together in a healthy environment. That is why you always see some threads where a buyer/seller doesn’t feel they are treated fairly. And that’s one thing Epic has control over.

Unless every time when you buy product, you sign up agreement that you give away your rights for money return, as steam did when some guy went to EU court for their no return policy year ago.

I’d agree that the host (Epic) is most to blame in this equation currently, but on the bright side it also means that hopefully it can be rectified and the marketplace has a to grow. For digital goods a basic no refunds after download is the most tried and true and should be adopted, obviously without it, there has been a bit of a mess. It’s clear that there is some legitimate frustration by the customers in the lack of quality descriptions too. A curated marketplace should have already made sure that the descriptions were good but obviously this is not the case. Tightening up the requirement will help the customers a lot. Will it get rid of all threads on both sides, no, someone will always be upset about something, but it should help the MP grow. Hopefully Epic actually make the MP a priority, as they have the most to gain if they do, but it was a fair point mentioned somewhere earlier I think by Bruno that they tend to heavily prioritize their games and engine over any of the secondary concerns like the MP. Although, if it takes off like other marketplaces it should pay for itself and even for more employees that they can put on the core games/engine if they want, but if no investment is ever made, it’s a mute point. Usually if no balance is achieved the place will become a ghost town which while it won’t hurt Epic financially, it is missing a huge opportunity. Any of the successful 30% of the whole marketplace companies like Apple, Google, Unity, the investment pays for itself and then it pays for a whole lot of other stuff too.

Well put @greggtwep16.

In a more Realpolitik fashion: What the law says only actually matters if you have way more time and effort to spend on enforcement than is worth it for anything but the most expensive of purchases.
The marketplace selling prices are way below where it’s worth it to anyone to try to enforce any particular interpretation of any particular state law (much less the law of Delaware or North Carolina or wherever else EPIC might want to claim venue at odds with your chosen venue.)

Free refunds makes normal people more comfortable with buying, and thus drives up number of sales. This increase is usually bigger than the potential increase in refund abuse.
Also, refunds should be a non-issue – If I were credits $X during purchase, and the customer changes their mind, I should be debited $X, and this should happen before I actually see a payout, so it really doesn’t affect me as a seller one way or another.
This is all based on “good business practice” rather than any specific law, or even moral position.

A video review isn’t anything other than hurting the sales if it’s not done by an expert video game developer that everybody trust. Otherwise anything the user doesn’t understand how to work with would be advertised in the video as flaws. Like the video done for my package where the dust was introduced as a problem, rather than simply double clicking the material instance and setting Dust Amount to 0 or customize it. And since almost no valuable game developer has the time and money to buy and make a video review for every package, it’s better to not be done at all.

And then the “How to get an easy refund” guides go back up on pirating sites like before.