I need to spill my guts out!

Distribution UE Marketplace
239

Sorry if I sound rude at the end
Still 30+ refunds in a short time says to me that there is something wrong with what is being sold, or you don’t understand who you are selling to. It is a classic case of the blame game, Blaming your costumes for reqesting a refund is not how to make your products better, listing to your customers and finding out what they want.

Sorry to repeat but but telling your coutomes what they want and need rather then them telling you it a easy way to lose money, it’s all iralavent what you have work on or doing, all people care about is the product they have,

241

It doesn’t matter if not every seller lives in the U.S. Your content is being distributed by an N.C. company in the U.S. In the U.S. each state’s refund laws defer to the policy of the company who’s products a consumer has purchased. There are no federal refund laws, only states.

Companies only need to follow international laws if there is a physical entity there by which they are selling/manufacturing. The UE4 Marketplace is an online operation based in the U.S. That means it need only abide by U.S. laws, the same laws you are agreeing to abide by when you agreed to the EULA. You may want to review the clause regarding governing law and jurisdiction. This is also why an ITIN is required for sellers outside the U.S.

If what you’re saying is correct (it isn’t, but purely for the sake of argument) then sellers would have to file taxes in every country which houses a consumer of their product, which would leave us *owing *money to several countries. Not to mention swamped in paperwork.

Sellers are absolutely fine when it comes to this knowledge, the people who need to do some research are some of the individuals in who are terribly misinformed when it comes to this particular subject. There’s a lot of misleading information in being peddled around as fact, and that does a disservice to consumers who actually need to learn the truth of how things work and what their rights actually are. Steam’s refund policy is entirely voluntary. The Valve Corporation is a U.S. based company just like Epic, and abides by U.S. laws when it comes to refunds.

Now to discussion of whether users deserve to have a refund for any reason, I’m surprised to see this conversation continue. The same people are going in circles saying the same things, obviously no one is willing to concede their position regardless of the facts so why find different ways to word the same thing over and over again? Just seems like a colossal waste of time to me, but that’s only my personal observation. =)

242

I agree with pretty much all of this. Epic atm limit us to 10 screenshots maximum, and suggest a 2 minute video. For most assets that’s simply not enough IMO.

That said - with the refunds system as it is, we, as sellers, are meant to be contacted over each refund and given an opportunity to resolve it, and from what I’ve heard that doesn’t happen (though the only refunds I have had on my assets were part of a mass fraud purchase wave so I have no actual experience with it myself).

IMO - a better system should be implemented, but if it isn’t going to be some more transparency from every side would be a good start. shrugs

243

While in theory what you say might be correct (I can’t say for sure I’m not even a US law expert (I’m from the US) let alone how laws work between countries) but in practice this is definitely not the reality. Until the marketplace gets big enough to get on other countries radar it might not matter but when that pie gets big enough the other countries will force Epic to abide by local law if they wish to keep doing business within their borders (or electronic equivalent). There are many examples of this whether Apple (another U.S. company), Steam, etc. (even those without physical entities). Until that time occurs companies usually do just follow their own EULA (and even after for countries that don’t have refund requirements like the EU and a few others). In general as I said over the past few years and a few thousand sales about 25% come from countries with refund requirements. It’s not a majority about 51% comes from the U.S. but the refund requirement countries isn’t negligible either.

Epic certainly is free to come up with whatever terms they want and for a time they can even probably get away with not abiding by local laws in the EU, but eventually if push comes to shove and enough EU customers complained they would either be forced to abide by local laws or they would not be allowed to do business there and there are some financial and technical means (not perfect obviously netflix customers got around it for awhile) that they can make it difficult to do business there. Even the big guys don’t mess around with this. It’s why EULA’s are usually written like “All sales are final except where required by local law”. There are numerous interesting cases that can be looked up online to show you how it generally goes (some without physical entities as well). There are many more tools that each country has as far as punishment goes than just preventing physical shops opening enough so that in general if a company thinks its too expensive a proposition they will actually pull out like the previous Nintendo/Brazil example.

You mentioned tax and this is also another case of local law dictating how companies operate. Whether were talking about sales tax, VAT (EU), or other local equivalent. There are also interesting cases online that go along similar paths (again even some without physical entities). In reality until its big enough that the local politicians start salivating at another possible revenue source it doesn’t matter but if that day comes you can be assured that they do come knocking and it usually isn’t the companies that “win”. Yes there are international treaties but in general they are quite involved to the point that very few lawyers understand them, so I’d rather look to what is actually going on the ground than try to figure out that mess.

244

You keep missing the point that it is the online extension of a U.S. based country. Where you are when you choose to purchase the products is irrelevant, you are still engaging with a United States business. What you’re saying would be true if Epic had a physical entity in the EU through which U.S. sellers would be selling their products, but that isn’t the case . Furthermore, the fact that sellers outside the U.S. have to apply for an ITIN underlines that reality. They have to abide by U.S. laws, not the other way around. People keep erroneously citing Apple and Steam despite the fact that they are no different from Epic in this regard.

The Nintendo example was already discredited, refund policy had nothing to do with their decision to opt out of Brazil.

Again, at the end of the day it’s up to the consumer to know what rights they do and do not have. I highly recommend they actually read up on how these laws work, what jurisdictions apply and the terms they agree to when signing up to use a service. This is the same when figuring out whether or not you want to purchase a product. The information is out there, clear as day. Don’t take my word for it or anyone else in this thread, go and actually look yourself.

I see you’ve edited your post to include more information. You are correct, lawmakers are looking for ways to get around the inherent nature of the online marketplace -which is a border-less market. That hasn’t happened yet though, and isn’t likely for some time if ever given the considerable resistance they are facing from giant online distributors such as Amazon who have significant sway.

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As I said rather than trying to figure out the international treaties, I rather look to what is happening on the ground in terms of lawsuits and whether companies are actually complying or not. Chances are if the companies lawyers deemed the best option was to comply then the local laws are having some impact and this will always go from big fish first to the little fish because of the amount of money involved. The EU law change that would concern those even with online only businesses that aren’t based in the EU occurred at the beginning of 2015. The current broken link in the chain for the most part is that the IRS and the EU tax authorities when it comes to VAT aren’t cooperating, or at least not fully cooperating. In lawsuit terms only being a year and a half into this law is quite young but when U.S. based companies with no physical presence in Europe are starting to collect VAT I think it’s clear which way the tea leaves are pointing (just opinion). Apple and Steam both have a physical presence in Luxembourg, the Brazil/Nintendo case as you mentioned “officially” were because of other reasons, but its a fascinating case and at least in my opinion it was clear that the local politicians “won” that. While it’s true you can poke holes or point to other reasons for either compliance or withdrawal in most current cases (the ones currently in the pipeline from the post 2015 change won’t finish for awhile) I’d rather look at what most businesses are doing, they have more expensive lawyers than I do and pretty sure they wouldn’t give up money without a fight.

This is also assuming that Epic doesn’t care about introducing their engine to local Universities, hosting conferences, or other typical business practices designed towards growth. The marketplace is tiny and I’m sure if it stays that way and EULA they come up with will de-facto be followed. If it grows though I wouldn’t be shocked to see a clause added to the EULA that says “except where required by local law” and also wouldn’t be shocked if they started collecting VAT for EU customers if it grows.

The whole situation like this is a total mess and there will always be tons of EULA’s on both sides and lots of fun for lawyers. As the pot of money grows, I’d place money on local politicians getting their way if they are a big enough market (like the EU or a growing market like Brazil or China). For a time or if your small no one cares but it doesn’t stay that way forever.

246

Wrong.
There is so much wrong with this sentence that you should really stop and think about your next statement.
Honestly, please stop, you are making yourself look bad and it really is hurting your public image right now.
It really is disappointing to see two content creators who I used to have a good modicum of respect towards, resorting to the kinds of statements seen in this thread which play loose with the facts and in some cases genuinely appear as attacks on other creators for little other than disagreeing with them.

I’m going to list the relevant UK law regarding distance selling as this is the law that I sell under and is also part of the reason Steam made refunds available in recent years.
The Consumer Protection Regulations [Distance selling] 2000

247

On the contrary. Saying this statement is wrong without any substantiated evidence to back it up only hurts your argument. I’ve provided sufficient evidence in all my posts throughout this thread that convey existing laws and procedures when it comes to refund policies and jurisdiction of international business when it comes to online matters. The mere fact that the current policy is what it is alone refutes your argument. If there is indeed so much wrong with what I’m saying, it should be fairly easy for you to provide counter arguments backed up by evidence, not simply a word highlighted in bold. Otherwise your comments are merely speculative at best. At the end of the day what you or I think doesn’t matter, what the law dictates does and so far what I’ve posted is in direct harmony with it’s directives.

248

Check the link I included.
That is my evidence.
I however have yet to see you or maximum-dev post any evidence to back your statements.

249

That pertains to the United Kingdom. We already went over why this doesn’t apply to a U.S. based business. If you feel that it does however, you are free to file a lawsuit in the case you are denied a refund. Good luck finding a lawyer who will take that up. Better luck winning the actual case which will take place in Superior Court of Wake County, State of North Carolina. N.C.'s refund law can be viewed , but due to it’s simplicity I will paste as follows: There’s no right to cancel contracts or purchase agreements. Whether you can receive a refund is dependent on the retailer’s return and refund policies

As for the edited additions to your post, I honestly don’t see how you claim I am attacking anyone. I’m merely citing the laws as they are and explaining how it justifies the current refund policy. I didn’t write them, I’m simply conveying them to people who might not know of their existence or impact on what they purchase. As I said in the above post, I don’t ask anyone to take my word for it. Go and read it for yourselves. All consumers should be informed, otherwise unexpected surprises are bound to happen. To deny the reality however is only doing a disservice to fellow consumers.

250

I’m just going to leave this then if you will not look into the subject matter I referred you to.

Perhaps this will help clarify why Epic and thus the marketplace is affected by regional laws.

251

An overseas court ruling on a U.S. based business does not mean the business has to abide by that ruling if there is no physical entity present in that country. A previous U.S. president was deemed a war criminal by an overseas court, by that logic he would be imprisoned under that state’s jurisdiction. The article you linked wasn’t the first time something like that happened, and it won’t be the last. It’s rulings have zero effect. A court redefining physical goods to include digital products isn’t going to impact a U.S. business and their online operations. If Valve wanted to open up an office in Aus, then they would have to deal with this decision and it’s consequence. Otherwise it’s just posturing from an international court. If anything this will only discourage businesses from setting up in Australia. But fortunately you don’t need to setup a business entity in the country in order to sell online digital products there.

252

Except that country could block the business from trading in that country.
This has happened before, it’s well known both Microsoft and Google have been sanctioned for anti competitive practices in Europe and has resulted in some pretty severe consequences.
Epic also have offices in quite a large number of locations.
https://.epicgames.com/about

253

  1. Trade requires physical goods. Australia tried to redefine what that is by including digital goods, but that won’t be recognized internationally for obvious reasons. If this interpretation of the term physical goods was ratified internationally, then you’d be correct. Until such a time, things are what they are.

  2. Epic does indeed have branches across the world, but the main HQ and more importantly the place from which the marketplace is run is Cary, NC. That is the jurisdiction for matters pertaining to digital content sales or any disputes between Epic and the consumer. I provided an excerpt from the EULA earlier showing this, under the governance and jurisdiction clause.

edit: For those who may not want to go through the thread to find it, is a link + the excerpt:

*17. Governing Law and Jurisdiction

You agree that this Agreement will be deemed to have been made and executed in the State of North Carolina, U.S.A., and any dispute will be resolved in accordance with the laws of North Carolina, excluding that body of law related to choice of laws, and of the United States of America. Any action or proceeding brought to enforce the terms of this Agreement or to adjudicate any dispute must be brought in the Superior Court of Wake County, State of North Carolina or the United States District Court for the Eastern District of North Carolina. You agree to the exclusive jurisdiction and venue of these courts. You waive any claim of inconvenient forum and any right to a jury trial. The Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods will not apply. Any law or regulation which provides that the language of a contract shall be construed against the drafter will not apply to this Agreement.*

254

I think we’re all arguing semantics , and as long as the marketplace is tiny and there isn’t enough tax revenue (because honestly that is a greater deal to politicians than a refund policy although once one is catered to the other probably will be as well) all this discussion is a mute point. In the general case businesses will only care about the bottom line and whatever furthers that goal will be done. When things are small, politicians don’t care, and businesses will follow their local law until certain consequences become clear (like lawsuit, fines, etc.). When things are meaningful in terms of money politicians usually do start to care and see the payday and try and enforce their local policies for customers from their country.

From a letter of the law perspective, I believe at least in current treaties that Jon is correct (but I doubt any of us have poured through the treaty text). From actual actionable items though it is clear that more and more companies are relenting to local law if the market is large enough and they care about it. While Epic is small in terms of number of offices abroad where the penalty for disobedience if they ever got big would be relatively small, don’t underestimate desires for access to the market if the was ever pressed in court. I don’t think Epic would behave any different than Google, Microsoft, etc. if the was ever pressed, but it’s all opinion until it becomes big enough to come to fruition.

Jon might be correct for US, and valeyard for Australia, Bruno for Brazil, etc. these ideas aren’t mutually exclusive. Also, local law and international treaties can differ and not all nations ratify everything so it’s always a mess. The idea that foreign publishers agreeing to a US contract is enforceable is the same as foreign customers being able to enforce local laws to a foreign company. The reality is that it’s not that simple and enforcement is hard. I really would really just look to those that have gone through this before like the large companies and extrapolate that those conclusions will be the likely conclusion if local politicians ever decide to push the to the smaller fish.

255

Everyone is law expert nowadays, at least on the internet :D.

256

Hey, I’ve got a masters degree from Internet State University Law. Those wikipedia courses were no joke. =P

257

No way me too! What year did you graduate? :stuck_out_tongue:

In all seriousness, of course none of us have a degree in international law and if you were hosting your own site you should consult a lawyer on whether or not to collect VAT if you have EU customers, or other countries. Epic obviously has their own lawyers, but its not like this was a conversation that anyone was going to base their companies future on. That being said there are tons of actual websites nowadays that do have self help advice from actual lawyers but you should always take that with a grain of salt even if it’s a hot topic like this one that has been discussed before by actual lawyers that we’re just repeating written articles or stating opinion. If you are basing your future on advice, make sure the advice is from a qualified professional not any forums. Isn’t that common sense by now? Kind of like don’t stick your hand in the shark tank?

258

Agreed.

And class of 2016! My years of experience didn’t give it away? =P

259

yep part in semantic, but part is also, the way we see things, or would like them to be. and finally there is the legal way.

lol, thanks for pointing the EULA. just reading the intro I get into trouble with the 17. article

I’m not a lawyer, but is it legal ? really, I would like to know.

in the introduction:
If your primary residence (or primary place of business, if you are a legal entity like a corporation or an academic institution) is in the United States of America, your agreement is with Epic Games, Inc. If it is not in the United States of America, your agreement is with Epic Games International S.à r.l., acting through its Swiss branch.

I’m swiss, and the company I’m dealing with too. So can really the Governing Law and Jurisdiction be stated in North carolina ?! sounds weird to me.

to be honest, we can put what we want in a contract, that never meant it’s going to happen that way. It only work, as long as both side, agree. The day one side decide to go to a court…

p.s.
for those who don’t read the EULA:
**E. No Refunds

Except to the extent required by law, all payments, fees and royalties are non-refundable under all circumstances, regardless of whether or not this Agreement has been terminated.**