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    Quaternion in blueprint

    The SetAngularOrientationTarget blueprint node takes a Quaternion as the
    position target but there seems to be no user friendly way to create such
    data. It would be great if there were conversion nodes from a rotator or
    Euler angles.
    Zoltan Erdokovy, Sr. Technical Artist

    #2
    If you know c++ you can do it yourself
    =========
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      #3
      Here is a RotatorToQuat blueprint macro for those of us who do not know c++:
      http://zspline.net/files/RotatorToQuat.uasset
      Zoltan Erdokovy, Sr. Technical Artist

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        #4
        That is just an oversight, we have tried to hide quaternions from Blueprints to try and reduce complexity, and they are not much fun to work with element-by-element. I'll deprecate the version of that function that takes a quat and add a new one that takes a rotator. Thanks for bringing it up!
        Lead Programmer - UE4 Animation/Physics/Audio Team - Epic Games
        Twitter: @EpicJamesG

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          #5
          Originally posted by JamesG View Post
          That is just an oversight, we have tried to hide quaternions from Blueprints to try and reduce complexity
          I'd appreciate it if you guys stopped doing this kind of thing - I'm finding blueprints increasingly difficult to work with since the earlier UE4 versions, because you guys are abstracting away and removing core functionality under the guise of 'reducing complexity'. Blueprint should mirror it's C++ API counterpart as much as possible, not have everything hidden away in 'helper' functions whose functionality renders them pointless outside of very specific use cases. Quaternion math exists to solve specific problems, and people have historically used them for various ends in Unreal gameplay scripting, the classical example being objects that require the full three degrees of rotational freedom and the issues that would otherwise occur with Euler angles.

          Just doing things like projecting from camera space, or working with actors based on their screen space coordinates has become a complete and utter nightmare, whereas it was trivial before. It would also help if functions stopped getting 'friendly' names - I get that you're trying to cater for the non-programming crowd, but is isn't helping anyone when functionality stops using naming conventions that have been widely used since the 1970s, since if you're following any kind of documentation external to Unreal, it becomes a pain in the **** to translate. As a person used to said conventions, I frequently have a really hard time even finding the functions I'm looking for without going into the source code to find what they're now called.
          Last edited by ambershee; 06-11-2014, 07:23 PM.

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            #6
            Originally posted by ambershee View Post
            Blueprint should mirror it's C++ API counterpart as much as possible, not have everything hidden away in 'helper' functions whose functionality renders them pointless outside of very specific use cases. Quaternion math exists to solve specific problems, and people have historically used them for various ends in Unreal gameplay scripting, the classical example being objects that require the full three degrees of rotational freedom and the issues that would otherwise occur with Euler angles.
            I have to say I agree with Ambershee on this one.

            Before I begin I want to please note I am not directly this at JamesG, but all of Epic who is involved in this policy of weakening the power of what Blueprints were, even in the Beta!

            It's a strange day when you have to admit that Blueprints are weaker now then they were in the Beta!

            Someone as experienced in the Unreal Engine as Ambershee should not have to be quoted as saying this:

            Originally posted by ambershee View Post
            I'm finding blueprints increasingly difficult to work with since the earlier UE4 versions, because you guys are abstracting away and removing core functionality under the guise of 'reducing complexity'.
            If even one of your core community members says that, something is very wrong.

            This message should not be ignored!

            Blueprints should be growing! It's such a young language with so much potential!



            I urge you all to consider this deeply!


            People dont need weaker tools, just organize the tools and maintain their power!

            Everyone learns and grows, and as they learn and grow, I dont think it's a logical progression that advanced BP -> now I will learn C++ !


            Beginner BP should lead to powerful advanced BP user, who has the tools they need!


            If you think my comments are coming out of nowhere, then consider me as responding to the very IDEA that blueprints should be less powerful just to cater to a wider audience. You dont have to think of specific things that you might have done (or not done yet), just please make sure that this does not happen!


            I am responding to the general software trend of lowering the power of a tool just so it is more accessible, when you do not need to!


            Blueprints are a young language that can grow to be very powerful if you are not thinking of blueprints as simply a way to cater to those who dont want to use C++

            Why not see what Blueprints can become on their own if you allow them to be powerful?!

            At least leave the functionality in there that people who only have Blueprints as a programming language will need!

            FRotator is not enough, even for my project which does not involve a 6DOF flying space shooter.

            I've had to transition most of my custom game mechanics to Quaternion to get proper results

            ~~~

            Organizing the Complexity

            Blueprints should not have reduced complexity,

            Blueprints have so many tools to organize the complexity, that you can simply organize everything appropriately and leave it in!



            Why are you limiting what blueprints can become before they've had a chance to blossom into a truly powerful programming language?



            People want and need the Power to be in Blueprints as a standalone programming language!

            Rama

            PS: again I am not needing you to think of specific cases as the focus of my response, I just want you to deeply consider this:

            Blueprints can become a very powerful visual programming language, why not work on maximizing the power of blueprints, instead of thinking of how they can be made to cater to beginners?

            No one stays a beginner, we all learn and grow, but advanced BP users will not necessarily then jump to c++, they should have advanced BP Power that you allow and encourage to be there!

            I can appreciate where you are coming from but I think you are worried too much about public opinion rather than the people who will actually use your system daily. If the occasional user says "wow this is a lot of options, too much for me" that's not you're fault. They are just the occasional user anyway.

            The people who use blueprints daily need the power to stay in blueprints and even grow!

            It's a young language, don't stifle it for the sake of "beginners"
            Last edited by Rama; 06-11-2014, 08:18 PM.
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              #7
              I think as designers we can all see the need to reduce complexity.

              Of course we also want the most powerful tools possible.

              The challenge Epic has is to introduce us to as much power as possible without making the engine into something un-intuitive like Cryengine. And of course they have a finite amount of man hours available.

              I am sure they would love to give us quaternions in blueprint wrapped in a nice, polished package, but maybe it wasn't high enough on the priority list so they removed what they felt was an unfinished, un-intuitive system?

              Maybe the devs can put quaternions on the roadmap to properly flesh out?
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                #8
                Come on Epic...Why are you making moves like this? While BETA testing we all said how much we loved Blueprint system and how easy it is to do things. One of the main reason why other engine users shifted to UE4 was Blueprints. Now you are reducing their complexity for beginners? When we first got UE4 Beta we were beginners too in UE4 and we showed how easy it was to pick things up get everything running. If you are reducing the complexity for beginners they aint gonna say "Oh look, Epic reduced complexity for us. Its way easy now.". Instead they'll say "Oh look, its just another node editor that does nothing. We still have to do things in C++."

                Please Epic Please...Dont ruin this Engine for beginners.

                I would like to quote what Hourences once said.

                “Blueprint is the game-changer for me. It goes far beyond Kismet in Unreal Engine 3 and is incredibly powerful. I am a designer and artist, and for the first time in my career, Blueprint allows me to make entire prototypes and games without requiring me to touch a line of code. Never have I come across any other visual scripting tool or editor that comes within a thousand miles of the power of Blueprint.
                Originally posted by ambershee View Post
                I'd appreciate it if you guys stopped doing this kind of thing
                Me too...
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                  #9
                  Yeah, what they said.

                  I haven't been around for very long, so I don't know how the current state of Blueprints compares to the beta, but as a general observation there's a limit to the degree of simplification and "friendlyfication" that any given system can take before it starts to lose its power and flexibility.

                  Blueprints are awesome, and the very best parts of the system are the bits that closely mirror the underlying C++ structure and classes. The more tightly entangled they are, the better, in my humble opinion. Please keep them in close parity going forward.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by ambershee View Post
                    a pain in the ****
                    What, what do you put there that has 4 letters that makes sense?

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                      #11
                      Here to 2nd the comments in this thread. Not looking to bring any flames on, just want to provide some end user feedback.

                      I think there's quite a few new to UE4 drawn into the system not only for the price but for blueprints in particular. When they realize that they may need to get into C++, I think there will be much more frustration and support tickets to deal with. So instead of speculating any further, let me give you the rundown of our situation and how blueprint limiting affects us.

                      So picture a small two person team looking to put together a modest mobile game. My partner is the artist and sees the blueprint system as a great way for him to tweak and modify the system when needed. I'm doing the coding. From time to time, our roles will merge and flip as needed. I'm coming from Unity and have not toyed with C++ since the mid 90's. So, much relearning to do. Except while this learning is taking place, we prototype in blueprint and convert to C++ when able or when it just makes better sense for speed. Problem is when what we need isn't in blueprint, or when the conversion from blueprint to C++ doesn't work for reasons we can't yet identify. So what we end up doing is spending a lot more time on trying to ascertain how the C++ functions work and how things tie together, instead of game development.

                      So in our case, what would help us out greatly (and many others I suspect) is a lot more documentation. I know this is planned and we need to be patient right So, we're being patient. Just that between now and then (when documentation really rocks), I suspect there will be much complaining with end users. Hey, maybe that's what prompts to limit blueprints...which I think if so will just increase the # of support tickets. Anyway, while we all know that there is much still in the works and that there is only so much that can be accomplished on any given day, samples and copious amount of documentation for C++ functions would do wonders for those finding themselves diving into code when blueprints don't cut it. I think this would be a wise foundation to develop until one day in the distant future blueprints perform and have all the capability that code provides.

                      Hope I don't come off too negative, as my dev partner and I are quite thrilled with UE4 and very much look forward to the future with this platform. Just a bit of friendly feedback Thanks!

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by Zeblote View Post
                        What, what do you put there that has 4 letters that makes sense?
                        b u t t? [adding more text to exceed minimum 10 char limit]

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                          #13
                          I think that Blueprints can have complex features without necessarily becoming user
                          unfriendly. The whole engine is supported by tutorials and the community and thats
                          a huge advantage. Staying with the quaternion example, a designer might create a
                          whole game without hearing about them, just by following tutorials. However if that
                          designer runs into a problem where rotators can't do the task then he/she will end
                          up learning about quats. And that knowledge will help that designer down the line.

                          @Zeblote: That would be "****".
                          Last edited by Alexander Paschall; 06-12-2014, 12:11 PM. Reason: Censoring
                          Zoltan Erdokovy, Sr. Technical Artist

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by ZoltanE View Post
                            @Zeblote: That would be "****".
                            Heh, didn't think of what way to write it.
                            Last edited by Alexander Paschall; 06-12-2014, 12:10 PM. Reason: Censoring

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                              #15
                              @Zeblote, ZoltanE and Xenome: Please stop trying to circumvent the word filter. Seriously, it's kind of obviously against the rules. This is your warning, I'm going to edit your posts as well.

                              As far as Quaternion rotation issues, we will make sure this gets addressed as soon as we can.
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