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    Originally posted by SilentAndAsleep View Post

    The lack of GI won't make a game bad of course, but you still need it to make an open world game up to today's graphic standards. Horizon and TW3 are using GI btw, just like all open world AAA games. Nier didn't have GI and it showed, with dark and flat lighting and shadows. Good game, but looks very dated.

    And how would it affect a game negatively? It works with all engines. Cryengine has it, had it for years. And it runs better than UE4 without any GI. Unity has it. All AAA in house engines have it. The "increased" hardware requirements is not an excuse.
    I suppose that's the case, and I admit that I'm not the most objective judge here because my hair stands on edge every time I hear the words "graphic standards" or "graphic improvements" or any other variation of the term. If you hadn't noticed I couldn't tell if TW3 had dynamic GI nor could I have noticed that Nier: Automata didn't (I inferred it from it running at 60fps on the PS4) and I don't see how Nier: Automata looks dated at all. In my mind the pursuit for the nextest and bestest graphics is what ultimately drives game budgets into insane figures and dooms games to repetitive, safe "AAA copy-paste trash" that big publishers are pushing out on a yearly basis, hence why I find every "revolutionary" graphic improvement such as dynamic GI as ultimately useless.

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      I'm not a pro or something like that but as an amateur all the open world games i've seen in unreal engine 4,they were looks bad in terms of lighting,the last one is state of decay 2 i think.
      I'm not really getting tired of watching the lighting and jungles in a game like Kingdom come,it's just lovely ! and well don't know if it have GI or not.
      Of course epic always shows beautiful tech demos with UE4 but at one side no one can be as good as them in using their game engine and at other side Tech demo is Tech demo and game is game..

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        To be honest, I do buy games based off visuals and one of the reasons that I didn't buy Nier is because it doesn't look that great.

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          heh I wonder why Lightmass was invented in the first place if flat lighting is totally fine. or why need PBR if Phong shading is totally fine. why do we need normalmaps if only baked diffuse is fine? why do we need textures at all if you can get away with flat colors?

          yeah, I don't know why anyone would ever want good lighting in a game


          also wanting better graphics isn't necessarily coupled with big publishers pushing out games on a yearly basis
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            The workflow and iteration improvements dynamic GI would bring are at least if not more important than the visual splendor. Having to wait minutes and often hours for every change to lighting just isn't a productive way of working. If Epic wants to stick with Lightmass, I'd at least expect them to incorporate things like a progressive GPU lightmapper similar to what Unity and Frostbite have or better compression algorithms to that we can blend between different lighting scenarios to make dynamic time of day at least possible. My point is, it doesn't even need to be fully dynamic GI but Lightmass at the moment simply lacks a lot of features that would greatly improve it's usability.
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              Originally posted by Chosker View Post
              heh I wonder why Lightmass was invented in the first place if flat lighting is totally fine. or why need PBR if Phong shading is totally fine. why do we need normalmaps if only baked diffuse is fine? why do we need textures at all if you can get away with flat colors?

              yeah, I don't know why anyone would ever want good lighting in a game


              also wanting better graphics isn't necessarily coupled with big publishers pushing out games on a yearly basis
              This is not really a valid comparison since the effects you listed have a far larger visual impact than dynamic GI. Going from flat colours to textures is hardly the same as going from no-GI to GI.

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                Originally posted by DamirH View Post
                Actually scratch that - I believe it can only affect it negatively due to increased hardware requirements. This makes it, in my judgement, a useless feature when it comes to game development. If anything it's juts another "GDC showfloor" feature to cater to the archivis and offline-rendering crowd.
                Then don't use normal maps. They increase ram usage. But I'm pretty sure you do, because materials without normal maps don't look as good. New hardware aren't being built for 4K gaming only, but rather for pushing graphical details.

                The matter of fact is, dynamic G.I is the new standard, almost every other engine already has a form of dynamic G.I. Give it just a little more time and the absence of dynamic G.I in UE4 is going to show as apparent as "the material with and without normal map".
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                  Originally posted by Maximum-Dev View Post

                  Then don't use normal maps. They increase ram usage. But I'm pretty sure you do, because materials without normal maps don't look as good. New hardware aren't being built for 4K gaming only, but rather for pushing graphical details.

                  The matter of fact is, dynamic G.I is the new standard, almost every other engine already has a form of dynamic G.I. Give it just a little more time and the absence of dynamic G.I in UE4 is going to show as apparent as "the material with and without normal map".
                  I get the idea but I still disagree on the numbers. "A dozen AAA blockbusters" hardly counts as "new standard". The normal-map comment is also questionable at best because it is no big secret that the vast majority of gamers don't have PCs who can push dynamic GI; not something that can be said for normal maps. Maybe in a decade this will change but considering the emergence of VR has pushed up both fps and resolution requirements at the same time, I doubt it.

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                    Originally posted by DamirH View Post

                    This is not really a valid comparison since the effects you listed have a far larger visual impact than dynamic GI. Going from flat colours to textures is hardly the same as going from no-GI to GI.
                    So you're saying you don't see a justifiable difference here?






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                      No, that's a gigantic difference, but it's also the worst-case scenario. In a real-world scenario the effect wouldn't be nearly as dramatic plus you'd have level designers and artists do proper lighting meaning that the "before" pic would hardly be that bad. I am not saying that GI doesn't make a huge difference in "laboratory" scenarios but if you take one finished scene, or a finished game even, and toggle GI on and off like in the pic above, the difference would hardly be that striking.

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                        Originally posted by DamirH View Post
                        No, that's a gigantic difference, but it's also the worst-case scenario. In a real-world scenario the effect wouldn't be nearly as dramatic plus you'd have level designers and artists do proper lighting meaning that the "before" pic would hardly be that bad. I am not saying that GI doesn't make a huge difference in "laboratory" scenarios but if you take one finished scene, or a finished game even, and toggle GI on and off like in the pic above, the difference would hardly be that striking.
                        I'm not sure what you'd call a real world scenario but here's an outdoor game world with/without very early version of SVOGI with FPS being shown on top left.

                        There's literally less than 3 FPS difference here lol.



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                          Originally posted by Maximum-Dev View Post

                          I'm not sure what you'd call a real world scenario but here's an outdoor game world with/without very early version of SVOGI with FPS being shown on top left.

                          There's literally less than 3 FPS difference here lol.



                          I'll happily concede that there is a difference at minimal performance costs. I just don't really care for it much. As I said a few posts ago though, I'm not an objective judge here because I don't really care for graphics.

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                            Originally posted by Maximum-Dev View Post

                            So you're saying you don't see a justifiable difference here?





                            This is a flawed test because the non-gi version hasn't been run through lightmass. If you show the SVOGI vs the lightmapped version, the lightmapped version would look better.



                            Originally posted by Maximum-Dev View Post

                            I'm not sure what you'd call a real world scenario but here's an outdoor game world with/without very early version of SVOGI with FPS being shown on top left.

                            There's literally less than 3 FPS difference here lol.



                            You're showing a 3fps drop in a very isolated case with minimal geometry and no actors. Try showing it in a forest with a lot of trees/actors and get back to be on the fps drop. I'd be willing to bet the drop is in the 10-15fps range.

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                              You could probably make the lighting better if it were baked, but that type of game can't use baked lighting due to the size of the map.

                              But, for exteriors you don't need a complete dynamic GI system, it's not as complicated to get good results for something like that. Switch to an interior with lots of lights and lots of indirect lighting and it becomes a different matter.

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                                Originally posted by IronicParadox View Post

                                This is a flawed test because the non-gi version hasn't been run through lightmass. If you show the SVOGI vs the lightmapped version, the lightmapped version would look better.
                                Whole argument about needing dynamic GI is due to not being able to bake lighting on 10x10 kilometers and you suggest to compare with lightmass?



                                Originally posted by IronicParadox View Post
                                You're showing a 3fps drop in a very isolated case with minimal geometry and no actors. Try showing it in a forest with a lot of trees/actors and get back to be on the fps drop. I'd be willing to bet the drop is in the 10-15fps range.
                                That's Kingdom Come: Deliverance and that map is actually big with lots of objects. But there's some on/off test on trees if that's what you want to see.






                                Why am I posting these? just watch the video.
                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DctiRSFwoiI
                                And again, that's old, SVOGI was still an experimental feature in cryengine running on older hardware.

                                I think part of the reason some of you guys oppose dynamic GI despite the fact that it makes games look better is (as you guys mentioned) that you think the effort and money is better spent on other useful features. That the money and man-hours spent on dynamic GI is a waste. But look on the other end, the money and man-hours are being spent on RTX instead.

                                Would you have been happier to have a working dynamic GI solution even if it cost you 15 FPS or have RTX that has nothing to do with game development? because that's what you're going to get.

                                But if you're coming from the perspective that you prefer them give you more smaller useful things than one big dynamic GI, well people have been crying for spline decals for years and -0- is the amount of attention they received from Epic. That's a trivial thing to do for Epic. Man we're still trying to figure out how to use/fix the "New Physically Based Lighting" that is shipped with 4.19 and they're not even responding to the posts regarding that being broken right after having released it to the public.

                                I'm not sure where you guys are truly coming from but hey, eventually UE4 will lose it's popularity when it comes to making games because making games isn't what Epic is developing UE4 for, they've been developing a GDC open world hype-only engine, a car showroom engine, a Paragon engine and now a Fortnite engine without taking others into account. I've seen the exact same situation with Crytek before their engine lost popularity. They made cryengine a Crysis engine instead of a game engine and everybody knows that. Now they're posting articles on 80.lv and trying to pull people back but they can't.

                                Basically instead of giving you a lego kit to make things with it, they're making a lego thing using a few pieces, and allowing you to disassemble and reassemble that as much as you want. When the entire additions you get to the engine are from what's been used in their internal games,you're constantly limited to make games within the limits of their internal games. That's not why people sign up here.

                                Time will make things right. But it's going to cost a lot.
                                Last edited by Maximum-Dev; 05-16-2018, 10:11 PM.
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