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    [FEATURE REQUEST] Unlimited Detail

    Hello guys & gals,

    I have a suggestion that could possibly change the way that you game with "Unlimited Detail". I was searching through the internet on how to make things look better and more realistic in a video game and I came across something really interesting that I think would benefit Epic. Here is a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AvCxa9Y9NU . The way they do this is, Instead of using Polygons they use "Atoms" which they stream straight from TB hdd's or the internet. It would b e neat to see Epic adopt this to make awesome looking games. There are also more videos explaining how this is possible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U65NOh5cYJg

    Is this possible to implement?

    #2
    This is just point cloud data and their 'tech' is different way of loading the data from disk.
    Ppl have discussed about this to death for many years and the thing is: it's not revolutionary tech and is quite old and also isn't suitable for game development. They just put out fancy names on things and make bold statements, but in fact that ain't going anywhere for graphics in games. You can simply "remove" polygons from game technology, won't happen.
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      #3
      Also, that wouldn't create unlimited detail, you still have to make everything you want to have in there

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        #4
        Originally posted by Jonathan87 View Post
        Is this possible to implement?
        In that video you're looking at results of several years of research, so, unless epic decides to collaborate with euclidian, it is not gonna happen.

        Amount of data required by those scenes is massive. If you listened to the video you' would've noticed that the narrator casually mentioned that the data is streamed from multi-terabyte hard drives.

        Originally posted by BrUnO XaVIeR View Post
        This is just point cloud data and their 'tech' is different way of loading the data from disk.
        Being able to stream and display this amount of data in real time is actually a big deal.

        Originally posted by BrUnO XaVIeR View Post
        You can simply "remove" polygons from game technology, won't happen.
        It is really disappointing to see this kind of statement on game engine forum, especially when that game engine is unreal 4.

        The tech is quite obviously useful for VR environments and digitizing real worlds. The obvious application is oculus rift. There are plenty of reasons to want something like that.

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          #5
          It's not any more of a benefit to VR than the current polygon system is. If you're doing photogrammetry, then the results using current methods that generate a mesh will have just as much detail but far less data.

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            #6
            Asking the industry to remove polygons from games is like asking car manufacturers to remove gas engine from cars and fuel them with water instead. It's possible, but nobody will do it in this lifetime because of 'reasons'.
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              #7
              Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
              It's not any more of a benefit to VR than the current polygon system is. If you're doing photogrammetry, then the results using current methods that generate a mesh will have just as much detail but far less data.
              Photogrammetry-based polygonal model will produce noise at certain distance, in this video I'm not seeing any.

              Originally posted by BrUnO XaVIeR View Post
              Asking the industry to remove polygons from games is like asking car manufacturers to remove gas engine from cars and fuel them with water instead. It's possible, but nobody will do it in this lifetime because of 'reasons'.
              Are you even serious? There are cars on the market right now that do not run on gasoline. Tesla motors went electric route, and asians have hydrogen based vehicles, there are countless other alternative approaches.

              The point is, polygonal approach to 3d has severe limitations and makes certain tasks (like CSG) too difficult. You also HAVE to use lods with polygons because when there are multiple triangles visible per pixel, it will produce noise.

              This industry is supposed to innovate, you know? That's why I said that seeind this kind of comments is depressing.

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                #8
                Originally posted by NegInfinity View Post
                This industry is supposed to innovate, you know? That's why I said that seeind this kind of comments is depressing.
                Please don't bring drama into this like the other hundred times this topic has been brought up.

                This technology has been promised a long time ago but all I've seen are the videos they post, nothing from a major third-party studio. In any case, if a UE4 engine developer can chime in, he'd be more knowledgeable about anyone here on whether or not this tech is feasible for inclusion.

                That said, I know UE4 is used for many applications but gaming is where it started and where it's still used the most. And I doubt anyone wants to download terabytes of game data just because a tree looks better now that it did before.

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                  #9
                  We dont need euclodio or what ever. We still havent maxed out our actual technology yet.
                  The last big innovation was just displacement and raytracing. And we just scratched it.
                  No way we will get to "atoms" in the next 20 years.

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                    #10
                    This just seems like all of those "revolutionary" projects on Kickstarter that raise 2 million USD (Razors that last forever, etc.) , and then you never really hear about that product again.
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                      #11
                      Originally posted by NegInfinity View Post
                      Photogrammetry-based polygonal model will produce noise at certain distance, in this video I'm not seeing any.
                      Since when?

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by NegInfinity View Post
                        Are you even serious? There are cars on the market right now that do not run on gasoline. Tesla motors went electric route, and asians have hydrogen based vehicles, there are countless other alternative approaches.

                        The point is, polygonal approach to 3d has severe limitations and makes certain tasks (like CSG) too difficult. You also HAVE to use lods with polygons because when there are multiple triangles visible per pixel, it will produce noise.

                        This industry is supposed to innovate, you know? That's why I said that seeind this kind of comments is depressing.
                        Just like oil industry does everything needed to stop threats to their business, GPU manufactures will make sure things like this never take over unless under their financial domains.

                        And electric cars are still indirectly attached to the oil industry; Tesla Motors are trying to be the 'Apple of Cars', but their business aren't running very healthy right now. Although I know nothing about cars, is easy to see why.
                        Also, the japanese guy inventor of water based car engine simply vanished, nobody have any idea of him anymore.
                        If this tech could be that important, NVidia would do anything to buy them out and then destroy the tech they have.

                        And yeah, I'd say that 'depressing' is a mark of reality. The world we live in...
                        Last edited by BrUnO XaVIeR; 11-16-2015, 08:46 AM.
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                          #13
                          Euclidieon is a very dishonest backer seeking organization with no real innovative tech as far as most are concerned and they tend to hide their limitations and make specious claims. They have some recent progress that seems interesting but their past history alone makes them discountable. If you actually want promising work in the field of sparse voxel octree based environments then the Atomontage engine is what you would want to look at.

                          http://www.atomontage.com/
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CCZIBDt1uM

                          This guy actually has promising work and even though some of the claims (600fps on laptop) seem a little suspect, he still seems legit and has some very impressive videos.

                          That being said there is literally no reason to try and switch rendering paths at the moment, all toolsets and graphics cards are optimized for Polygonal rendering and the basic workflow and tech for fully voxelized scene raycasting/rasterizing isn't there yet to make a switch over worth it yet/ever. Even atomontage admits that most of his (fairly small) scenes take "several dozens of hours to generate on a single core and tens of gigabytes of data before compression".
                          Last edited by mordentral; 11-16-2015, 10:33 AM.


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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Jonathan87 View Post
                            Hello guys & gals,

                            I have a suggestion that could possibly change the way that you game with "Unlimited Detail". I was searching through the internet on how to make things look better and more realistic in a video game and I came across something really interesting that I think would benefit Epic. Here is a video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AvCxa9Y9NU . The way they do this is, Instead of using Polygons they use "Atoms" which they stream straight from TB hdd's or the internet. It would b e neat to see Epic adopt this to make awesome looking games. There are also more videos explaining how this is possible. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U65NOh5cYJg

                            Is this possible to implement?
                            That is not unlimited detail and those "atoms" are pixels. This tech has existed for years and cannot be used for games due to the very obvious limitations.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                              Since when?
                              Since always. When you have very high polygonal density and multiple polygons per pixel, you get noise. That's one of the reasons why lods and normalmaps exist.

                              Originally posted by BrUnO XaVIeR View Post
                              Also, the japanese guy inventor of water based car engine simply vanished, nobody have any idea of him anymore.
                              Google Toyota Mirai. Hydrogen, not water, but not gasoline.

                              Originally posted by BrUnO XaVIeR View Post
                              If this tech could be that important, NVidia would do anything to buy them out and then destroy the tech they have.
                              NVidia doesn't have to care. As long as the new tech uses GPUs, it will bring more money to nvidia, no matter what kind of tech that is.

                              Originally posted by mordentral View Post
                              Euclidieon is a very dishonest backer seeking organization with no real innovative tech as far as most are concerned and they tend to hide their limitations and make specious claims. They have some recent progress that seems interesting but their past history alone makes them discountable. If you actually want promising work in the field of sparse voxel octree based environments then the Atomontage engine is what you would want to look at.
                              I'm not saying Euclidieon is trustworthy or something. In the video op linked they promised to show a game that uses their tech, and the video was posted 1 year ago, and there's no game.

                              However, bashing any new technology just "because it isn't polygons!" on gamedev forums is ridiculous.

                              Originally posted by mordentral View Post
                              several dozens of hours to generate on a single core and tens of gigabytes of data before compression
                              Not much difference compared to lightmap baking or Realtime precomputed gi.
                              Last edited by NegInfinity; 11-16-2015, 12:12 PM.

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