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    Originally posted by ZenDavis View Post
    I think the staff needs to realize they are directly responsible for the livelihood of others, and I don't think many DO necessarily recognize that. They think that they're working on something cool or that someone is just complaining and being mean to them. But you have to look at it from our perspective in that if you imagine that Tim Sweeney said he wasn't going to pay you guys, how quickly you get angry because that hurts your livelihood.

    That's the same position you're putting us in in that you're hurting our livelihoods. It's a hurtful move to leave people in the dark for months, to lie to them about when a roadmap is coming, or to blow off their problems and concerns. It doesn't cost you a dime to come here and post regular updates for us. Weeks, months, and years later, we're at a point where that frustration is manifesting itself here on the forums. Saying you're listening is different than talking back. "We hear you" is meaningless without a meaningful back and forth.

    The Engineers who feel like they're being unfairly derided, or ridiculed, need to come to grips with the fact that you are literally making people's lives harder for them. This is what being in a position of responsibility is like because when you put out this product called Unreal Engine 4, your company told everyone, "This is going to be able to let you live the life you always dreamed of being able to live" and we accepted that you would be responsible for making that happen.

    Then when you don't follow through on those promises, patronize people who request help, lie to others about when a roadmap is coming up, you're obviously going to get treated with ridicule because, again, you accepted that responsibility. The engineers may think they're just doing their own thing and they're collecting their paycheck and going home. But people like Andrew Hurley need to remember that you are DIRECTLY responsible for other people's lives and when you ignore their calls for help, you are being absolutely unprofessional and do not deserve the paycheck you collect. At minimum, everyone who Andrew blew off deserves their problems reviewed. At best, the Epic staff understands the seriousness of the responsibility your executives took when they accepted being responsibile for people's livelihoods.

    I can feel your pain.
    The only tip i can give you is to learn using unity,even when its not super hot at the moment.
    Workflow and Level Editor are already now better in unity , some other stuff is not.
    But im under the impression at the moment that the unity team is more hungry to give the users cool new features then the unreal devs are.
    So hopefully unity catches up on the graphics site enough to consider it as main engine soon.

    You should really get a second leg to stand on because the Situation with unreal will not get any better, trust me.
    You can extrapolate from the last years.
    Communication got worst every year and you will not be here when it reaches bottom line.

    Comment


      Originally posted by emeraldcoast View Post
      But im under the impression at the moment that the unity team is more hungry to give the users cool new features then the unreal devs are.
      I can't even start to care about new features until the basics like collision detection actually work.

      Check out my discord -> https://discord.gg/kQdVwJ3

      Follow us on twitter to get updates on new products and special offers -> https://twitter.com/BlackFangTech

      Black Fang Technologies' products -> https://www.unrealengine.com/marketp...20Technologies

      Comment


        Originally posted by emeraldcoast View Post
        I can feel your pain.
        The only tip i can give you is to learn using unity,even when its not super hot at the moment.
        Workflow and Level Editor are already now better in unity , some other stuff is not.
        But im under the impression at the moment that the unity team is more hungry to give the users cool new features then the unreal devs are.
        So hopefully unity catches up on the graphics site enough to consider it as main engine soon.

        You should really get a second leg to stand on because the Situation with unreal will not get any better, trust me.
        You can extrapolate from the last years.
        Communication got worst every year and you will not be here when it reaches bottom line.
        Every single "serious" game made with Unity suffers from extreme performance issues. That alone is reason enough to steer around it in a very large circle.
        [Submitted] Advanced Data Validation

        Comment


          Originally posted by Maximum-Dev View Post
          Yes I clicked on them. 37 votes is 7 votes less than 44. Obviously votes number doesn't help with the sorting. Also your 33 votes report was created on Dec 9, 2014 and fixed on Mar 2, 2017, even if it was fixed just for the sake of votes, 2.5 year wait is how much a highly voted bug report was valued... I'm not sure if I'd still be here by the time the one with 44 votes gets fixed.
          Actually 4.15 and 4.16 are the first releases that actually fix some of most voted issues!
          Now... some of you gonna complain "oh no, why it took so long?". But others could see hope here, i.e. some annoying and "basic" bugs in blueprint system are finally fixed

          Number of votes can't be never the only deciding factor for single reason. Different teams and people are responsible for different parts of engine.
          So often issues with no votes at all are fixed faster because given team is "free" for few days. Or they refactor some tool so it's easy and quick to address many issues at once.
          Once "blueprint guys" started to work on most voted issues, they fixed few of them.

          But I agree with you - producers should minimize situation in which a lot of important issues wait over 2 years to be fixed. And then decrease "maximum waiting period" with every release.
          Last edited by Doctor Ergot; 04-30-2017, 05:48 AM.

          Comment


            Originally posted by emeraldcoast View Post
            I can feel your pain.
            The only tip i can give you is to learn using unity,even when its not super hot at the moment.
            Workflow and Level Editor are already now better in unity , some other stuff is not.
            But im under the impression at the moment that the unity team is more hungry to give the users cool new features then the unreal devs are.
            So hopefully unity catches up on the graphics site enough to consider it as main engine soon.

            You should really get a second leg to stand on because the Situation with unreal will not get any better, trust me.
            You can extrapolate from the last years.
            Communication got worst every year and you will not be here when it reaches bottom line.
            The thing is using any engine is an investment. In many ways its like buying a house and building a life around the location of that house. You can't just pick up the codebase we invested to make for this platform and move to another engine. And so early on many of us had to make a decision whether we would trust Epic and build our life in this ecosystem. Whether we would invest thousands of dollars to get a project made that would earn a living for all of us (and in turn share 5% of the wealth we accumulated with Epic Games for giving us that platform).

            In many ways our decision to settle into this ecosystem now feels like its being taken for granted and that is hurtful. You might have the most qualified engineers in the industry working at Epic, but Tim Sweeney might as well have hired robots if they can't begin to care about our needs and concerns, and talk to us with a sense of decency and duty. It's a genuine betrayal of the trust we placed in this platform when we first moved in. You can't make people wait three years for a bugfix. You can't tell people a roadmap is going up in early April and then go radio silent as that time comes and goes. It takes 10 minutes to throw up a forum post. In that time if we check out Chance Ivey's Twitter, he's tweeting about playing Persona 5.

            Chance, how are you going to play Persona 5, when your team promised that we'd get an update for the roadmap in Early April? Don't you see how screwed up that is? People are waiting with their livelihood in their hands and you're busy playing Persona 5 instead of following through on your word. That doesn't mean you're listening. It might as well mean you're not even here. You're hurting us.
            Last edited by ZenDavis; 04-30-2017, 10:18 AM.

            Comment


              Originally posted by ZenDavis View Post
              The thing is using any engine is an investment. In many ways its like buying a house and building a life around the location of that house. You can't just pick up the codebase we invested to make for this platform and move to another engine. And so early on many of us had to make a decision whether we would trust Epic and build our life in this ecosystem. Whether we would invest thousands of dollars to get a project made that would earn a living for all of us (and in turn share 5% of the wealth we accumulated with Epic Games for giving us that platform).

              In many ways our decision to settle into this ecosystem now feels like its being taken for granted and that is hurtful. You might have the most qualified engineers in the industry working at Epic, but Tim Sweeney might as well have hired robots if they can't begin to care about our needs and concerns, and talk to us with a sense of decency and duty. It's a genuine betrayal of the trust we placed in this platform when we first moved in. You can't make people wait three years for a bugfix. You can't tell people a roadmap is going up in early April and then go radio silent as that time comes and goes. It takes 10 minutes to throw up a forum post. In that time if we check out Chance Ivey's Twitter, he's tweeting about playing Persona 5.

              Chance, how are you going to play Persona 5, when your team promised that we'd get an update for the roadmap in Early April? Don't you see how screwed up that is? People are waiting with their livelihood in their hands and you're busy playing Persona 5 instead of following through on your word. That doesn't mean you're listening. It might as well mean you're not even here. You're hurting us.
              You know they take Saturday and Sunday off.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Themanwithideas View Post
                You know they take Saturday and Sunday off.
                Was just gonna say that... it's Sunday.
                [Submitted] Advanced Data Validation

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Themanwithideas View Post
                  You know they take Saturday and Sunday off.
                  Not sure what my post has to do with Saturday or Sunday when I'm talking about weeks and months going by without proper updates. If Chance can post 150 characters about Persona 5, there was no reason he couldn't have posted a 150 character update on what was happening with the roadmap on the days that weren't Saturday or Sunday.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by ZenDavis View Post
                    The thing is using any engine is an investment. In many ways its like buying a house and building a life around the location of that house. You can't just pick up the codebase we invested to make for this platform and move to another engine. And so early on many of us had to make a decision whether we would trust Epic and build our life in this ecosystem. Whether we would invest thousands of dollars to get a project made that would earn a living for all of us (and in turn share 5% of the wealth we accumulated with Epic Games for giving us that platform).

                    In many ways our decision to settle into this ecosystem now feels like its being taken for granted and that is hurtful. You might have the most qualified engineers in the industry working at Epic, but Tim Sweeney might as well have hired robots if they can't begin to care about our needs and concerns, and talk to us with a sense of decency and duty. It's a genuine betrayal of the trust we placed in this platform when we first moved in. You can't make people wait three years for a bugfix. You can't tell people a roadmap is going up in early April and then go radio silent as that time comes and goes. It takes 10 minutes to throw up a forum post. In that time if we check out Chance Ivey's Twitter, he's tweeting about playing Persona 5.

                    Chance, how are you going to play Persona 5, when your team promised that we'd get an update for the roadmap in Early April? Don't you see how screwed up that is? People are waiting with their livelihood in their hands and you're busy playing Persona 5 instead of following through on your word. That doesn't mean you're listening. It might as well mean you're not even here. You're hurting us.
                    Yes i understand completly.
                    But you have to realise that the issues will not get any better in the next few years.
                    The oposite will happen.They will concentrate even more on VR stuff and communicate even less with the community when they realise that most in the community dont like their new direction.

                    I also dont think the narative of the "lazy/careless" epic developer fits it completly.
                    Yes some of them are very unwilling to even look at important bugs seriousely . I have met those ones too.
                    But most of the devs. seem willing to work hard.

                    I just think that there is a high possibility that there are just not enough developers on the team for the amount of work which needs to be done.
                    So that every dev has to split his/her atention on multiple problems a day and therefore just cant sit on one problem over several days or even weeks,which would be nessesary in order to solve it.

                    I think its maybe even the CEO of Epics decision to get the maximum amount of money out of the engine with the minimum amount of people working on the engine and not so much the developers, even when very few of them seem to be really unwilling to work seriously, but not the most.


                    Yes unity has its kinks at the moment , but the will to create usefull features for the gamedevelopers and not slow feature development for the customer down when facebook comes around and waves with a lot of money,is higher in the unity team, i think. I wouldnt switch completly to unity at the moment but in 2 years if they manage to catch up then i would gladly.You should try to learn the unity engine in your freetime, because the Situation here at unreal will get worst and worst for the customer. You clearly saw that on the way the community manager reacted to the critic in this post and the "remodeling" of the trello UE4 Roadmap with the goal of makeing the development process more intransparent and stop the complaining in the community about backloged features.

                    We all have seen this in other companys which got "too" powerfull and felt that they dont "need" to apeal to their customers any more,but rather tought they could "dictate" their userbase what to spend their money and time on,without taking any feedback from them, like

                    -Apple
                    -Microsoft
                    -Adobe
                    Last edited by emeraldcoast; 04-30-2017, 02:24 PM.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by ZenDavis View Post
                      Not sure what my post has to do with Saturday or Sunday when I'm talking about weeks and months going by without proper updates. If Chance can post 150 characters about Persona 5, there was no reason he couldn't have posted a 150 character update on what was happening with the roadmap on the days that weren't Saturday or Sunday.
                      Whether you like it or not, the guy has a 9 to 5 work schedule. He can play Persona 5 and post about it for any number of hours after work.
                      Last edited by DamirH; 04-30-2017, 02:08 PM.
                      [Submitted] Advanced Data Validation

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by DamirH View Post
                        Whether you like it or not, the guy has a 9 to 5 work schedule. He can play Persona 5 and post about it for any number of hours after work.
                        Originally posted by DamirH View Post
                        This is reading comprehension 101 and you seem to misunderstand his post on purpose.
                        He's not saying Chance shouldn't have played games beyond the work hours, or that he should work more than the work hours. He's saying there has been enough time during work hours, for a month, to post an update and let people know what's happening. So when he doesn't get that, and he sees "playing persona 5", it hurts him, because it feels like making a promise and then failing to deliver seems to be of low importance at that point. So maybe making a forum post even beyond work hours, isn't too much to expect.

                        Edit: This isn't really about Chance, it's about the whole communication from Epic whether it's AnswerHub, Discord (abandoned), PMs, Emails, Forum threads, etc. There are a bunch of people complaining about how communication is getting worse in every of those channels.
                        Last edited by Maximum-Dev; 04-30-2017, 03:10 PM.
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                          Originally posted by emeraldcoast View Post
                          Yes i understand completly.
                          But you have to realise that the issues will not get any better in the next few years.
                          The oposite will happen.They will concentrate even more on VR stuff and communicate even less with the community when they realise that most in the community dont like their new direction.

                          I also dont think the narative of the "lazy/careless" epic developer fits it completly.
                          Yes some of them are very unwilling to even look at important bugs seriousely . I have met those ones too.
                          But most of the devs. seem willing to work hard.

                          I just think that there is a high possibility that there are just not enough developers on the team for the amount of work which needs to be done.
                          So that every dev has to split his/her atention on multiple problems a day and therefore just cant sit on one problem over several days or even weeks,which would be nessesary in order to solve it.

                          I think its maybe even the CEO of Epics decision to get the maximum amount of money out of the engine with the minimum amount of people working on the engine and not so much the developers, even when very few of them seem to be really unwilling to work seriously, but not the most.


                          Yes unity has its kinks at the moment , but the will to create usefull features for the gamedevelopers and not slow feature development for the customer down when facebook comes around and waves with a lot of money,is higher in the unity team, i think. I wouldnt switch completly to unity at the moment but in 2 years if they manage to catch up then i would gladly.You should try to learn the unity engine in your freetime, because the Situation here at unreal will get worst and worst for the customer. You clearly saw that on the way the community manager reacted to the critic in this post and the "remodeling" of the trello UE4 Roadmap with the goal of makeing the development process more intransparent and stop the complaining in the community about backloged features.

                          We all have seen this in other companys which got "too" powerfull and felt that they dont "need" to apeal to their customers any more,but rather tought they could "dictate" their userbase what to spend their money and time on,without taking any feedback from them, like

                          -Apple
                          -Microsoft
                          -Adobe
                          In good faith, I want to believe that by airing our complaints that we can figure this out together. Chance, Alexander, and the rest of the team can talk it out with us and we can work to make things better together. That's why I'm writing all this. I want to believe that they'll be reasonable and hear us out and respond back in good faith and work with us.

                          Originally posted by DamirH View Post
                          Whether you like it or not, the guy has a 9 to 5 work schedule. He can play Persona 5 and post about it for any number of hours after work.
                          Never said he couldn't.
                          Last edited by ZenDavis; 04-30-2017, 05:34 PM.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Maximum-Dev View Post
                            He's not saying Chance shouldn't have played games beyond the work hours, or that he should work more than the work hours. He's saying there has been enough time during work hours, for a month, to post an update and let people know what's happening. So when he doesn't get that, and he sees "playing persona 5", it hurts him, because it feels like making a promise and then failing to deliver seems to be of low importance at that point. So maybe making a forum post even beyond work hours, isn't too much to expect.

                            Edit: This isn't really about Chance, it's about the whole communication from Epic whether it's AnswerHub, Discord (abandoned), PMs, Emails, Forum threads, etc. There are a bunch of people complaining about how communication is getting worse in every of those channels.
                            If that was the intent of the message then it was poorly communicated. "He doesn't answer but he tweets about Persona 5" implies that he's doing one instead of the other, which is just factually false. Chance the UE4 community manager and Chance the dude playing Persona 5 at home in the afternoon are two separate people and it's nonsensical to compare one to the other.

                            But at the end of the day, this is discussing silly semantics. On one hand I do agree on a fundamental level that front-facing communication could use a boost, but on the other hand I jump over to the Audio Engine thread and I see phenomenal communication across the board. So it's not as bleak as some people here want to make it out to be. AnswerHub was always intended to be a community tool, not an "Epic fix this for me" tool because first and foremost, most issues on AnswerHub are "Where's the make MMORPG button"-tier questions. The only "real" issue I see in this whole thing is the lack of issue acknowledgement and some really shoddy work by a few specific employees (Andrew Hurley).
                            [Submitted] Advanced Data Validation

                            Comment


                              Unity vs UDK vs UE4:
                              Most often switching to Unity isn't the answer as it just means facing a different set of problems etc.
                              This applies even for those that know it / use it. (I'm a fan of 4.x / 5.0 as it runs on almost anything).
                              It brings back memories of UDK: Epic fix things that are aligned to their interests & let other things rot.
                              Vehicles / Vehicle-Physics is a big elephant in the room, considering how vehicle centric UE3/UDK was.

                              Reality check:
                              As an Indie one of the hardest parts of outstanding bug-fixes is that you can't simply sit still / wait...
                              You have to delve into the engine code or more likely compromise and change / re-work your game.
                              This must be a nightmare too for content creators like Max Dev, who've maybe also promised stuff...
                              Learned this the hard way in UDK. Had to 100% redesign games after so many unsolved Crowd bugs.

                              Dev Grants are a great marketing device:
                              What if Dev Grants were used for supporting Devs instead of being a great marketing device, Epic???
                              Look at the talent level in the Community: Landscapes / Procedural-Terrain / Planets / OR / LW etc:

                              Originally posted by franktech View Post
                              #1. The new Roadmap may mean the end of support for wishlist items like Large-Worlds...
                              (Doubles+Unity3D-Camera-Blending) or Runtime-Terrain or Spherical-Terrain / Navmeshes etc.

                              So why not give 'Dev-Grants' to 'Community-Projects' that offer these kinds of 'Wishlist-Items'?

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by DamirH View Post
                                If that was the intent of the message then it was poorly communicated. "He doesn't answer but he tweets about Persona 5" implies that he's doing one instead of the other, which is just factually false. Chance the UE4 community manager and Chance the dude playing Persona 5 at home in the afternoon are two separate people and it's nonsensical to compare one to the other.

                                But at the end of the day, this is discussing silly semantics. On one hand I do agree on a fundamental level that front-facing communication could use a boost, but on the other hand I jump over to the Audio Engine thread and I see phenomenal communication across the board. So it's not as bleak as some people here want to make it out to be. AnswerHub was always intended to be a community tool, not an "Epic fix this for me" tool because first and foremost, most issues on AnswerHub are "Where's the make MMORPG button"-tier questions. The only "real" issue I see in this whole thing is the lack of issue acknowledgement and some really shoddy work by a few specific employees (Andrew Hurley).
                                The idea is that while Chance makes time to tweet about his Persona 5 activity, he didn't make time on April 3rd-7th, April 10th-14th, to actively get back to use on what was happening with the Road Map or even why that was delayed. Those are weekdays. Those are days he was actively working. If he could make time to tweet about Persona 5 during his off-work activities, why couldn't he generate the enthusiasm for his on-work activties during the 9-5 hours you alluded to earlier and give his 150 characters to inform us why the Road Map was delayed? It would have taken him no more than 60 seconds to type up those 150 characters to update us. It's ludicrous.

                                Chance, your professional life affects our personal life. Please emphathize with this. Please. To move past this, we need a simple and straightforward conversation as to why that won't happen again and we need more input on how the roadmap looks moving forward. If you don't have time to actually communicate properly as Community Manager, ask Epic to hire someone else so you can continue coding. Trust me, they have the money.
                                Last edited by ZenDavis; 04-30-2017, 06:45 PM.

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