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(VIDEO) UE4's Geometry Mode is inadequate when compared with that of Quake 1

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    I understand what people want, but given that it's a bigger feature to work on and it wouldn't benefit all that many people I've suggested an alternative that would benefit pretty much everyone. This is something that would be much better: https://vimeo.com/102053975
    Being able to do faster updates between the apps would allow you to much more quickly use the extensive modeling tools available in 3D software while still allowing you the benefit of having things in the editor.

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      That's a cool thing, and should defs be explored more, but in another thread, 'cause it doesn't serve the need we're talking about, which would also benefit many, many people.

      It's like the guy says, ya don't get it. You can get it! It's all here in the thread, you just gotta reach out and get it. It wants to get got!

      Post back when ya got it.
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        Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
        Being able to do faster updates between the apps would allow you to much more quickly use the extensive modeling tools available in 3D software while still allowing you the benefit of having things in the editor.
        The feature you suggested actually may have higher ongoing development/maintenance costs than fixing bsp, AND it will only help people who use very specific software packages.

        ----

        Either way, please submit that as separate feature request in different thread, because it has nothing to do with BSP tools.

        Also, it'll be greatly appreciated if you just leave this thread alone and stop arguing with people about BSP. All the necessary info was provided to you already.
        Last edited by NegInfinity; 12-23-2015, 07:04 AM.

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          I mean, also

          Also, I disagree that 3D tools can't be used to design a level, the only thing they lack is the functionality (mainly things like collision being included by default and having to export meshes to UE4 to use them).
          You clearly just haven't used level design tools to do level design before. Not holding that against you, but y'know... you're making an argument without the context to understand what it means.
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            Originally posted by JoeWintergreen View Post
            That's a cool thing, and should defs be explored more, but in another thread, 'cause it doesn't serve the need we're talking about, which would also benefit many, many people.

            It's like the guy says, ya don't get it. You can get it! It's all here in the thread, you just gotta reach out and get it. It wants to get got!

            Post back when ya got it.
            Explain how it wouldn't help? From what I can see, a 3D app has far better tools available than what BSP has in UE4 right now--for level design of course it's missing things like gameplay elements, lighting, Blueprints, etc. But for the geometry itself which is what you're asking for it's far better than what we have now. It might not be the workflow you prefer, but it's certainly a better choice. So if it can overcome the only downside which is that you have to export the meshes to UE4 to be able to see them in-game then it's a solution to the issue.

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              Originally posted by NegInfinity View Post
              The feature you suggested actually may have higher ongoing development/maintenance costs than fixing bsp
              In what way? Or are you just making a guess?
              Also consider that this would be of use to more than the people that want to use BSP, so if it's more effort then it might be worth it.

              Originally posted by NegInfinity View Post
              AND it will only help people who use very specific software packages.
              They only have to cover Maya, 3ds Max, and Blender. All of which have Python support and that would cover 99% of users

              Comment


                Originally posted by JoeWintergreen View Post
                I mean, also


                You clearly just haven't used level design tools to do level design before. Not holding that against you, but y'know... you're making an argument without the context to understand what it means.
                I have, and I'd much rather use a 3D modeling app that gives me far more tools to use.

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                  So, to join the discussion:

                  In my opinion darthviper is right that there shouldn't be big emphasis placed on getting bsp better. 3D modelling package integration is needed the most.

                  Even if you get awesome bsp tools, modelling a level in bsp will be at best as hard as modelling the same level in a 3d modelling package. I think that your points about lightmass are true, but this is also a part of "make the integration better".

                  The problem with source engine is, bsp is awesome, yes, it's optimised. But... static meshes are inefficient. As far as I remember they even wrote "Use bsp to make your levels, use static meshes only for a little bit of decoration".

                  I think that with better integration of 3d packages, you could use blender for example, as you would use bsp, and the changes would be synced immediatelly. There's no reason to try to recreate what 3d packages do, it's just inefficient.

                  Comment


                    From what I can see, a 3D app has far better tools available than what BSP has in UE4 right now--for level design of course it's missing things like gameplay elements, lighting, Blueprints, etc. But for the geometry itself which is what you're asking for it's far better than what we have now.


                    Modelling is a better option than the BSP tools that are in Unreal right now, yes. That's because the current BSP tools are really really bad. If they were on par with Source's, modelling would be a less good option.


                    @Cube: You have a number of points in there that are tied up with other engines and technicalities. It doesn't matter what's efficient/inefficient in the context of the Source engine - this is a different context. There's no reason why an implementation of BSP-style geometry tools in Unreal would have to be any less efficient performance-wise than building the level out of static meshes.
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                      Originally posted by Cube2222 View Post
                      So, to join the discussion:
                      Do you guys have "I oppose bsp" club or something?

                      Originally posted by Cube2222 View Post
                      you could use blender for example,
                      Nuh-uh. You couldn't. I know blender.
                      You need environment that can efficiently process large numbers of additive/subtractive shapes and resize those shapes which will result in seamless textures all around the model. Blender miserably fails at that.

                      The closest kind of 3d software package that sorta tries close to that is sketchup, but it still ain't it.

                      Also, the only specialized tool right now is valve hammer, plus older or half-finished opensource projects like "sledge", etc.

                      It is different approach. Instead of dealing with polygons, you deal with CSGs (constructive solid geometry). Trying to replicate CSGs with polygonal tools won't work well, you'll be fighting the tools and working at quarter of possible speed, if not slower.

                      The only package that could possibly be useful for that kind of thing is Houdini, but I don't know for sure.

                      In short:
                      You use 3d modeling tools when you make individual characters or object or small environments.
                      You will WANT CSG-based tools and bsps when you build cities, labyrinths, and the like.

                      The funny thing is that since "let's make everything out of static meshes" became a thing I started seeing more of significantly simpler and linear levels in games. Could be a coincidence, of course, but you never know.
                      Last edited by NegInfinity; 12-23-2015, 07:55 AM.

                      Comment


                        I created SuperGrid due to lack of usability in BSP. Do you model with SuperGrid or BSP? Hell no! But it definitely helps to cut the corner, when your main objective is to create level, game flow on your level and etc. You don't want to be distracted by visual details or complex modeling features, the goal is creating fun/good-to-play areas with field of view/obstacles/game flow and etc in mind.

                        Just check out this article. This is 1st stage of level design and it requires appropriate tools, which is not modeling packages or BSP with improved modeling features.(It should be extended to help level prototyping, don't get me wrong. I just don't think that mega-modeling-tool inside UE4 could help in this process)
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                          Originally posted by zeOrb View Post
                          I created SuperGrid due to lack of usability in BSP. Do you model with SuperGrid or BSP? Hell no! But it definitely helps to cut the corner, when your main objective is to create level, game flow on your level and etc. You don't want to be distracted by visual details or complex modeling features, the goal is creating fun/good-to-play areas with field of view/obstacles/game flow and etc in mind.

                          Just check out this article. This is 1st stage of level design and it requires appropriate tools, which is not modeling packages or BSP with improved modeling features.(It should be extended to help level prototyping, don't get me wrong. I just don't think that mega-modeling-tool inside UE4 could help in this process)
                          I guess it means that different people want the same thing (BSP) for different reasons and different purposes.

                          Which means it something that is worth improving and working on.

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                            Excuse my jump in, But being a level designer and coming from source i find the unreal CSG block tool really slow when doing a level and worse when trying to do a multilevel map, i agree with darthviper107 that UE4 is geared more towards meshes and that the best looking levels are made using 3d model programs but my work flow as a level designer is 1. sketch a rough picture on paper 2. block out the map to get a game play feel 3. set up scripted sequences and action settings 4. detail out the map and do the lighting, using source i can block out a map in 1 or 2 hours doing 2 or 3 run around in it to tweak it out, trying to do the same thing in UE4 would take 4 or more hours to archive which is very unproductive when with UE4 you also have to create and BP or code in the game sequences, as for use a 3d modeling program to to the design i cant see me using 3dMax let say just to block out a level before finally detailing it,, so to sum things up yes the CSG UE4 tools need improving even if the base csg level isn't used in the final game produced

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                              wow, its looks like this thread got a little heated, I think everyone should try to be a bit calmer.

                              as for the BSP tools, I for one think they do need to be improved even if its only for faster prototyping.

                              Originally posted by NegInfinity View Post
                              There's no point in bringing up high-budget AAA titles
                              I don't know about anyone else but I consider the borderlands game series AAA and they use quite a bit of BSP.

                              Unity does that (monitors changes to file), and that feature is very annoying , because every time you re-save some file, you have to wait till editor editor finishes (re)importing it, before you actually can do anything in the level. If the file is an fbx skeleton with dozen animation, pause can be significant. Now, UE4 fbx import is very slow, so this will get on your nerves very quickly.
                              what if you could choose which files UE4 monitored and when it re-imports them?, maybe even have "re-import selected" button so UE4 would either auto-import when it detects a change to a file...ect or it only re-imports any files being monitored when you press the button, that way you get the features without the annoyance plus the you would have total control.

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                                Originally posted by smokey13 View Post
                                what if you could choose which files UE4 monitored and when it re-imports them?, maybe even have "re-import selected" button so UE4 would either auto-import when it detects a change to a file...ect or it only re-imports any files being monitored when you press the button, that way you get the features without the annoyance plus the you would have total control.
                                I think it will just add clutter to UI instead of being useful feature.

                                In unity you can drop files into project through file manager, directly. Because of that auto-reimport makes sense. In UE4 you aren't supposed to do that to begin with, so monitoring one specific file doesn't really fit into workflow (let's say source file got moved elsewhere. 2 weeks later it is replaced by another file with the same name. Now what?).

                                Either way it is not really related to BSP tools...

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