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(VIDEO) UE4's Geometry Mode is inadequate when compared with that of Quake 1

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    #91
    Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
    It affects me as a user because if Epic has to develop a feature then that means the have to dedicate resources for that and then other features don't get attention. I would rather they work on things that most people would benefit from.
    Well I feel the same about mobile games, and VR, and loads of other stuff that is in UE4. As do many others. But we don't run around ******** about what people want and putting them down. You on the other hand....
    Acclivity Game Studios. Making a BP FPS, Tutorial Series on Blog : On Unreal Wiki : Twitch

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      #92
      Originally posted by JoeWintergreen View Post
      While I disagree with you completely about your second line, and generally do agree with you about people who aren't willing to use a 3D tool at all, this right here depends completely on what they're making. I've no doubt that this is true of whatever it is that you're making. But if you take something like, you know, CS, or Half-Life, or something Quake-esque, or Thirty Flights of Loving to use a more modern example, there's very little you would need a 3D app for.

      You shouldn't need Maya or whatever for simple geo. Once you're trying to do anything more complicated than the kinds of stuff the Quake community turns out, yeah, you should probably be getting into meshes. But we can't even do that right now. The statement in the thread title is true: Quake 1 has better level design tools than Unreal does.

      Luckily, there's now a plugin you can use to make your levels in Quake 1's tools (more realistically Source's but whatever) and import straight into Unreal! That is still not as good as just providing the functionality though.


      As for callin' people lazy, I dunno, man. You used a vague generalisation that you knew referred to a lot of people here and then insulted that. I dunno if that's better?
      It seems that the number of people that are shooting for that quality level is very low, hence why it's not necessarily a pressing issue.

      Comment


        #93
        Originally posted by NegInfinity View Post
        The feature isn't HUGE, and it is enough to express your opinion once instead of repeating it 50 times in hopes that people will get fed up and decide to "agree" with you.

        People KNOW what they're doing, and KNOW what they want, alright? I'm sure that BSP are unsuitable for whatever that is you're working on, but it is a valid option and a necessary tool for a hundreds of thousands of other projects that use different art style.
        I certainly want it. Really. By the way, I know how to model. However traditional modeling process is not good for many kinds of levels, and you really need something more efficient than that.

        In many cases splitting level into parts and making a "building kit" is less efficient workflow than making it with bsp and the difference is significant.

        Also, development time is not your decision, since you are not epic games. Allocating one guy/(girl?) on that feature and letting him/(her?) work on it for few months would make huge difference. Since software development is subject to Brook's law, there won't significant loss of productivity from that one guy working on geometry tools.

        Have you, I don't know, ever modeled a house yourself? In those older editors, or in something like sims 3, or in, say, Saurbraten/Cube 2 engine? Because you need to be familiar with the process to "get" it.


        You're a moderator, which means you're supposed to be a shining example of good behavior, being helpful, friendly and polite. Instead you're trying to argue with people to death because they don't share your opinion. What the heck, really.


        Thanks for posting, this is gonna be useful.

        If BSP modeling was as big of an issue, there would be more people asking for it. If all the people who don't need more BSP modeling features were to post then that thread would be much bigger.
        I'm not advocating for a modular workflow, it would actually be easier to model everything in a 3D modeling app even without modular pieces. That's why I recommend some times for people to make unique meshes than to try and build things out of modular pieces.
        I've done quite a bit of modeling (including houses) and I'd much rather use an actual 3D modeling app than any game editor, since they have much more development in for that purpose.

        Being a moderator doesn't mean I have to agree with what everyone posts, and if I disagree then I can share my opinion.

        Comment


          #94
          Originally posted by arbopa View Post
          No, not at all. Which sort of proves out that you are not really listening to what people are talking about with level design. Thanks for alerting everyone to that reality.
          There's more to level design than 3D geometry, but this is only about the ability to create geometry, which is in the realm of a 3D artist. If I'm designing a level it's as much about what it looks like as it is about if it plays well.

          Comment


            #95
            Originally posted by arbopa View Post
            Well I feel the same about mobile games, and VR, and loads of other stuff that is in UE4. As do many others. But we don't run around ******** about what people want and putting them down. You on the other hand....
            You're free to respond to any thread about asking for features and add your opinion about whether you think they are needed.

            Comment


              #96
              I block out my levels with bsp and supergrid and build meshes in a 3D package, so I get my work done already. Doesn't change the fact that the built-in geo tools are lacking/broken and Epic should get on this asap! How this affects their resources shouldn't be our concern tbh and I trust they can manage this task.

              Comment


                #97
                Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                There's more to level design than 3D geometry, but this is only about the ability to create geometry, which is in the realm of a 3D artist. If I'm designing a level it's as much about what it looks like as it is about if it plays well.
                This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what level design is.

                Also, you're literally just quoting everybody's points and missing them. It's insane how much you're missing them! I'd almost suspect you're missing them on purpose!

                "You're free to respond to any thread about asking for features and add your opinion about whether you think they are needed."

                He doesn't do that because it's a worthless contribution. I'm not working on a VR game, but that is a bad reason to object to Epic working on VR support. I'm not working on a mobile game, but that is a bad reason to object to Epic furthering mobile support. I'm not working on an Xbox One game, but that is a bad reason for me to ask them to deprioritise Xbox One support. You don't feel you or your projects would benefit from good geometry tools, and do not understand why anyone would want them, and that is a bad reason for you to object to them. You're not contributing; you have nothing to say but "nah ur rong". It's fine, and commendable, to leave a conversation when you add nothing to it but bewildered hostility.

                "Being a moderator doesn't mean I have to agree with what everyone posts, and if I disagree then I can share my opinion."

                Nobody disagrees with that. People object to your rudeness and dismissiveness and see it as unworthy of a moderator. I think you might know this already.


                "If BSP modeling was as big of an issue, there would be more people asking for it"

                This is a big ol' fallacy. There is no reason to believe that this is true.

                Any time anybody brings this up
                dudes like you drop in and start telling everybody they're wrong. You start from the conclusion - that they're wrong - and then make up reasons to justify why (inexperience, can't afford tools, too lazy to learn). You give every indication of feeling somehow threatened by the existence of workflows other than your own, even when it's abundantly clear that those other workflows work for people, and work well, and there is demand. Right now, there are several of us in here talking to a wall, and it's exhausting. Why would people bring this up when the most common response is stubborn (and for some reason loud) refusal to even consider what we're saying? Not to mention we're on a relatively underpopulated forum, devoted to an engine that many people choose not to use because of this issue. My videos about this get a lot of likes, there's a lot of people who talk to me in the comments/on twitter/facebook/things other than this being supportive, and they mention that they never bring it up on forums because of people who want to shut them down rather than just discuss it. Like this!
                Impromptu Games|dev blog|twitter|itch.io store|Patreon
                Impromptu Procedural Ladders|Impromptu Procedural Handrails|Impromptu Procedural Stairs
                |Impromptu Fire Propagation|InFlux Example Game|Impromptu Vector Field Painter

                Comment


                  #98
                  Originally posted by JoeWintergreen View Post
                  This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what level design is.

                  Also, you're literally just quoting everybody's points and missing them. It's insane how much you're missing them! I'd almost suspect you're missing them on purpose!

                  "You're free to respond to any thread about asking for features and add your opinion about whether you think they are needed."

                  He doesn't do that because it's a worthless contribution. I'm not working on a VR game, but that is a bad reason to object to Epic working on VR support. I'm not working on a mobile game, but that is a bad reason to object to Epic furthering mobile support. I'm not working on an Xbox One game, but that is a bad reason for me to ask them to deprioritise Xbox One support. You don't feel you or your projects would benefit from good geometry tools, and do not understand why anyone would want them, and that is a bad reason for you to object to them. You're not contributing; you have nothing to say but "nah ur rong". It's fine, and commendable, to leave a conversation when you add nothing to it but bewildered hostility.

                  "Being a moderator doesn't mean I have to agree with what everyone posts, and if I disagree then I can share my opinion."

                  Nobody disagrees with that. People object to your rudeness and dismissiveness and see it as unworthy of a moderator. I think you might know this already.


                  "If BSP modeling was as big of an issue, there would be more people asking for it"

                  This is a big ol' fallacy. There is no reason to believe that this is true.

                  Any time anybody brings this up
                  dudes like you drop in and start telling everybody they're wrong. You start from the conclusion - that they're wrong - and then make up reasons to justify why (inexperience, can't afford tools, too lazy to learn). You give every indication of feeling somehow threatened by the existence of workflows other than your own, even when it's abundantly clear that those other workflows work for people, and work well, and there is demand. Right now, there are several of us in here talking to a wall, and it's exhausting. Why would people bring this up when the most common response is stubborn (and for some reason loud) refusal to even consider what we're saying? Not to mention we're on a relatively underpopulated forum, devoted to an engine that many people choose not to use because of this issue. My videos about this get a lot of likes, there's a lot of people who talk to me in the comments/on twitter/facebook/things other than this being supportive, and they mention that they never bring it up on forums because of people who want to shut them down rather than just discuss it. Like this!
                  Spot on. I have already reported one of his posts, hoping to call Epics attention to the behavior of one of their 'moderators'. Totally out of line IMHO.
                  Acclivity Game Studios. Making a BP FPS, Tutorial Series on Blog : On Unreal Wiki : Twitch

                  Comment


                    #99
                    If you think a feature isn't useful to many people, then you should respond. For example if you think VR isn't going to be successful and would be a waste of resources then it doesn't matter if you're making a VR game or not, you can voice your opinion. As is the same for the people you say are telling you they want the feature--If there's a massive amount of people that want a feature then it won't matter if they don't share. If they're intimidated by people disagreeing with them then it won't matter if people disagree if there's enough responses that people want the feature. The people who don't need the improved modeling features aren't likely to respond because things are working for them OK already. People who do have an issue are more likely to speak out, so it would be absurd not to say something if you have an issue. All I'm seeing is a handful of people who know anything, and then a bunch of inexperienced people who know little about game development workflows and think that it's supposed to allow them to create a full level in the engine.

                    A much better solution to the issue that would benefit everyone would be to make using a 3D software more convenient. There's little that BSP can offer that 3D modeling software doesn't, and since most people use this workflow already it would be a better use of time. Levels are much less "boxy" these days and the tools would have to be much more complex than what BSP is good for.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                      If you think a feature isn't useful to many people, then you should respond.
                      No, if you aren't going to use it, it is none of your business and you should walk by without interfering. "Live and let live".
                      The only exception is when people request removal of features you rely on.

                      Engine devs will decide if it worth their time or not, not you.
                      Arguing against feature just creates useless noise, and create unpleasant impression of the community, especially when moderators do that.

                      Besides it is quite obvious at this point that this feature is useful to many people.

                      Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                      If they're intimidated by people disagreeing with them then
                      So, every person that puts a feature request should pass trial by combat, resist being intimidated and slay a dragon or something? This is ridiculous. Developers are supposed to COOPERATE and HELP each other, instead of dealing with this kind of nonsense.
                      Last edited by NegInfinity; 12-23-2015, 04:28 AM.

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                        guys, thats one of the most polite, but pointless drama i ever saw Click image for larger version

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                          Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                          The people who don't need the improved modeling features aren't likely to respond because things are working for them OK already.
                          If only!
                          All I'm seeing is a handful of people who know anything, and then a bunch of inexperienced people who know little about game development workflows and think that it's supposed to allow them to create a full level in the engine.
                          Here's you rudely throwing around baseless insults again. How do you be a moderator and think this is the way to behave? This is a game development community. Stop calling people's experience and expertise into question because you're having trouble understanding what they're talking about.
                          Impromptu Games|dev blog|twitter|itch.io store|Patreon
                          Impromptu Procedural Ladders|Impromptu Procedural Handrails|Impromptu Procedural Stairs
                          |Impromptu Fire Propagation|InFlux Example Game|Impromptu Vector Field Painter

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by NegInfinity View Post
                            No, if you aren't going to use it, it is none of your business and you should walk by without interfering. "Live and let live".
                            The only exception is when people request removal of features you rely on.

                            Engine devs will decide if it worth their time or not, not you.
                            Arguing against feature just creates useless noise, and create unpleasant impression of the community, especially when moderators do that.

                            Besides it is quite obvious at this point that this feature is useful to many people.


                            So, every person that puts a feature request should pass trial by combat, resist being intimidated and slay a dragon or something? This is ridiculous. Developers are supposed to COOPERATE and HELP each other, instead of dealing with this kind of nonsense.
                            People are free to give their opinion on engine developments--for example, there were people wanting less new features and more performance improvements.

                            There's no reason to think that people will be hostile to posting about an issue--having an opposite opinion isn't hostility, it's simply the other side of the discussion. The forums have rules to avoid hostility, notice I'm not insulting anyone or doing something against the rules.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by JoeWintergreen View Post
                              If only!Here's you rudely throwing around baseless insults again. How do you be a moderator and think this is the way to behave? This is a game development community. Stop calling people's experience and expertise into question because you're having trouble understanding what they're talking about.
                              Thanks for completely ignoring what I said and some how pulling an insult out of that. There's definitely people who are asking for this feature because they lack the skills or experience to use the current workflow. Being an experienced developer asking for a new feature is one thing, but that's not the case for everyone here.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                                People are free to give their opinion on engine developments--for example, there were people wanting less new features and more performance improvements.

                                There's no reason to think that people will be hostile to posting about an issue--having an opposite opinion isn't hostility, it's simply the other side of the discussion. The forums have rules to avoid hostility, notice I'm not insulting anyone or doing something against the rules.
                                Would you kindly just leave the thread?

                                There's nothing to discuss.

                                Your arguments can be interpreted "I think that anyone who would want bsp tools is a noob and should not be taking seriously, therefore I will oppose the bsp for all eternity". I can't read minds over tcp/ip, so I don't know if that's what you MEANT to say. But that's what it LOOKS like you're saying. At the same time you do not appear to understand WHAT people want, HOW they would use those tools and WHY. As far as I can tell you just don't get it.

                                Thanks for lowering my opinion about UE4 community and forums. This is supposed to be the place where people help each other, instead we waste time pointlessly arguing about OBVIOUS things with a MODERATOR of all people!
                                Last edited by NegInfinity; 12-23-2015, 06:26 AM.

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