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(VIDEO) UE4's Geometry Mode is inadequate when compared with that of Quake 1

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    #76
    Originally posted by NegInfinity View Post
    That really doesn't work. And no, it is not a wrong workflow, it is weak point in the unreal editor.

    Modular approach leads to seams on lightmass and most lighting solutions. Seriously, have you tried to assemble large building from prefabs? It is major pain in the ***, and it is defeintely not the way it should be done.
    I've shipped multiple games of various scales using the Unreal Engine (from first-party AAA to small indie), and this is the approach I would generally recommend. If you're having issues with seams, I suspect the issue is with your assets, likely their lightmap UVs. Setting up lightmap UVs has always been a bit awkward with respect to lightmass - but that's an issue with lightmass, rather than geometry tools.

    I'm not saying that UE4 doesn't need better geometry tools, it's really does, but it also doesn't want to try and replace dedicated modelling packages.
    Last edited by ambershee; 12-22-2015, 06:01 AM.

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      #77
      Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
      Indies are fully capable of downloading Blender for free and using that which isn't that different from what AAA developers do. Why settle for making things difficult by trying to do things in the editor when there are cheap/free options that allow you to have the quality you want?
      "Making things more difficult" is forcing people to model everything in external app when the same things could've been done in less time within editor. Why make things difficult when they can be made easier, faster and more efficient AND that technology has been around since 1990s?

      Also, there's no real alternative, aside from maybe valve hammer and some ancient tools geared towards Quake 1. If there WERE real alternative it would've been linked and sticked long time ago.

      Why the heck do you argue against bsp to begin with? If you're not using those, ignore the thread, you are not the target audience.
      Last edited by NegInfinity; 12-22-2015, 06:09 AM.

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        #78
        Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
        What would be the best option is a tool where you could link your 3d program with UE4 and be able to update the level instantly with changes. That's much more doable and useful to everyone
        That would make a big time saving difference!

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          #79
          Originally posted by franktech View Post
          That would make a big time saving difference!
          Unity does that (monitors changes to file), and that feature is very annoying , because every time you re-save some file, you have to wait till editor editor finishes (re)importing it, before you actually can do anything in the level. If the file is an fbx skeleton with dozen animation, pause can be significant. Now, UE4 fbx import is very slow, so this will get on your nerves very quickly.

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            #80
            Originally posted by NegInfinity View Post
            Unity does that (monitors changes to file), and that feature is very annoying , because every time you re-save some file, you have to wait till editor editor finishes (re)importing it, before you actually can do anything in the level. If the file is an fbx skeleton with dozen animation, pause can be significant. Now, UE4 fbx import is very slow, so this will get on your nerves very quickly.
            Ouch! Forgot Unity does that too after code changes... Ok, strike that! (The road to hell is paved with good intentions...)
            Last edited by ClavosTech; 12-22-2015, 09:51 AM.

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              #81
              Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
              People who haven't made games before download the editor and expect to be able to make complete levels with it, and then they complain about the tools which aren't meant to be used for that purpose. Also, no you have to have artistic skill to make a good looking level, it's absurd to think otherwise.
              Honestly I can not believe you are a moderator with these attitudes and disdain for others that do not agree with you. You are not correct, on any level. Please move on to a different thread.
              Acclivity Game Studios. Making a BP FPS, Tutorial Series on Blog : On Unreal Wiki : Twitch

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                #82
                Originally posted by NegInfinity View Post
                Unity does that (monitors changes to file), and that feature is very annoying , because every time you re-save some file, you have to wait till editor editor finishes (re)importing it, before you actually can do anything in the level. If the file is an fbx skeleton with dozen animation, pause can be significant. Now, UE4 fbx import is very slow, so this will get on your nerves very quickly.
                I can't find it right now, but someone was working on a tool for Maya and UDK where they had their level in Maya and it was linked with UDK so that modeling changes happened almost instantly and they had the viewport linked so your viewport in UDK matched what you had in Maya. Something like that would be much more useful than trying to copy modeling tools into UE4.

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                  #83
                  Originally posted by arbopa View Post
                  Honestly I can not believe you are a moderator with these attitudes and disdain for others that do not agree with you. You are not correct, on any level. Please move on to a different thread.
                  I have the right to discuss and disagree just like anyone else. My main point is that Epic shouldn't waste time implementing a huge feature where there's already a solution where the only inconvenience is having to export the mesh to UE4.

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                    #84
                    Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                    I have the right to discuss and disagree just like anyone else. My main point is that Epic shouldn't waste time implementing a huge feature where there's already a solution where the only inconvenience is having to export the mesh to UE4.
                    Disagree and discuss is one thing, calling a whole lot of people 'lazy' because they don't see things as you do (or you refuse to see their point of view) is another.

                    'already a solution'... yeah, become a 3D artist... That takes all of what, like 2 or 3 hours? LOL. whatever...
                    Acclivity Game Studios. Making a BP FPS, Tutorial Series on Blog : On Unreal Wiki : Twitch

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                      #85
                      In which case you are willfully ignoring everything everybody is saying, and what I've said in my videos. I don't whip out the phrase "straw man" lightly (irks me, for whatever reason) but you are attacking straw men.

                      As others have mentioned, you are also being a little bit of a jerk - you're perfectly entitled to argue and discuss and disagree, but that is not what you're doing when you paint everybody who disagrees with you as lazy, inexperienced, unwilling to learn, or lacking expertise and flexibility. You're not discussing, you're dismissing, which is a bit rude. Let's all be discussing this with a view to learning and sharing ideas, huh? Old Guard stuff never helped anybody.

                      Nobody here is saying they want in-editor geo tools as a replacement for 3D modeling. 3D modeling tools have been being used erroneously as a replacement for level design tools. Think about the chronology of that for a bit. Before, game engines had level design tools. 3D modeling tools were still used for a lot of stuff in games. That was fine! But the need for level design tools never went away. People just stopped providing them.

                      Here are some things which are true:

                      -Level Design is a skill

                      -3D Art is a skill

                      -Most 3D Artists are not good at Level Design, and most Level Designers are not good at 3D Art! Just like how most professional football players are not also professional surfers! It can happen, but it isn't likely!

                      -Level Design tools are not good for creating 3D art - that's not what they're for

                      -3D Art tools are not good for creating levels - that's not what they're for

                      -Good 3D Art tools are available!

                      -Good Level Design tools are not available. We want to make them available!

                      -The availability of Good Level Design Tools benefits *everybody!* And it negatively impacts *nobody!*


                      So, you know - what's the angle here? Why would you be being negative in here? Is your goal purely to stop other people getting what they want, not because it affects you if they get it, but because you don't happen to want the same thing? That would be weird!

                      #hopethishelps
                      Last edited by JoeWintergreen; 12-22-2015, 10:07 PM.
                      Impromptu Games|dev blog|twitter|itch.io store|Patreon
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                        #86
                        Originally posted by arbopa View Post
                        Disagree and discuss is one thing, calling a whole lot of people 'lazy' because they don't see things as you do (or you refuse to see their point of view) is another.

                        'already a solution'... yeah, become a 3D artist... That takes all of what, like 2 or 3 hours? LOL. whatever...
                        If the tools are built into UE4 then you'd still have to have the same skills as a 3D artist.

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                          #87
                          Originally posted by JoeWintergreen View Post
                          In which case you are willfully ignoring everything everybody is saying, and what I've said in my videos. I don't whip out the phrase "straw man" lightly (irks me, for whatever reason) but you are attacking straw men.

                          As others have mentioned, you are also being a bit of a jerk - you're perfectly entitled to argue and discuss and disagree, but that is not what you're doing when you paint everybody who disagrees with you as lazy, inexperienced, or lacking expertise and flexibility. You're not discussing, you're dismissing, which is a bit rude. Let's all be discussing this with a view to learning and sharing ideas, huh? Old Guard stuff never helped anybody.

                          Nobody here is saying they want in-editor geo tools as a replacement for 3D modeling. 3D modeling tools have been being used erroneously as a replacement for level design tools. Think about the chronology of that for a bit. Before, game engines had level design tools. 3D modeling tools were still used for a lot of stuff in games. That was fine! But the need for level design tools never went away. People just stopped providing them.

                          Here are some things which are true:

                          -Level Design is a skill

                          -3D Art is a skill

                          -Most 3D Artists are not good at Level Design, and most Level Designers are not good at 3D Art! Just like how most professional football players are not also professional surfers! It can happen, but it isn't likely!

                          -Level Design tools are not good for creating 3D art - that's not what they're for

                          -3D Art tools are not good for creating levels - that's not what they're for

                          -Good 3D Art tools are available!

                          -Good Level Design tools are not available. We want to make them available!

                          -The availability of Good Level Design Tools benefits *everybody!* And it negatively impacts *nobody!*


                          So, you know - what's the angle here? Why would you be being negative in here? Is your goal purely to stop other people getting what they want, not because it affects you if they get it, but because you don't happen to want the same thing? That would be weird!

                          #hopethishelps
                          If you read what I posted I was careful not to say that everyone here is lazy or any specific person.

                          Also, I disagree that 3D tools can't be used to design a level, the only thing they lack is the functionality (mainly things like collision being included by default and having to export meshes to UE4 to use them).

                          I think what you want is some improved level tools, which there's certainly a need for even if you're just blocking out a level. But what I'm responding to is the people that don't want to use a separate 3D program at all and want to be able to do it all in UE4, which is a waste of development time. It affects me as a user because if Epic has to develop a feature then that means the have to dedicate resources for that and then other features don't get attention. I would rather they work on things that most people would benefit from.

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                            #88
                            which is a waste of development time.
                            While I disagree with you completely about your second line, and generally do agree with you about people who aren't willing to use a 3D tool at all, this right here depends completely on what they're making. I've no doubt that this is true of whatever it is that you're making. But if you take something like, you know, CS, or Half-Life, or something Quake-esque, or Thirty Flights of Loving to use a more modern example, there's very little you would need a 3D app for.

                            You shouldn't need Maya or whatever for simple geo. Once you're trying to do anything more complicated than the kinds of stuff the Quake community turns out, yeah, you should probably be getting into meshes. But we can't even do that right now. The statement in the thread title is true: Quake 1 has better level design tools than Unreal does.

                            Luckily, there's now a plugin you can use to make your levels in Quake 1's tools (more realistically Source's but whatever) and import straight into Unreal! That is still not as good as just providing the functionality though.


                            As for callin' people lazy, I dunno, man. You used a vague generalisation that you knew referred to a lot of people here and then insulted that. I dunno if that's better?
                            Impromptu Games|dev blog|twitter|itch.io store|Patreon
                            Impromptu Procedural Ladders|Impromptu Procedural Handrails|Impromptu Procedural Stairs
                            |Impromptu Fire Propagation|InFlux Example Game|Impromptu Vector Field Painter

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                              #89
                              Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                              I have the right to discuss and disagree just like anyone else. My main point is that Epic shouldn't waste time implementing a huge feature where there's already a solution where the only inconvenience is having to export the mesh to UE4.
                              The feature isn't HUGE, and it is enough to express your opinion once instead of repeating it 50 times in hopes that people will get fed up and decide to "agree" with you.

                              People KNOW what they're doing, and KNOW what they want, alright? I'm sure that BSP are unsuitable for whatever that is you're working on, but it is a valid option and a necessary tool for a hundreds of thousands of other projects that use different art style.
                              I certainly want it. Really. By the way, I know how to model. However traditional modeling process is not good for many kinds of levels, and you really need something more efficient than that.

                              In many cases splitting level into parts and making a "building kit" is less efficient workflow than making it with bsp and the difference is significant.

                              Also, development time is not your decision, since you are not epic games. Allocating one guy/(girl?) on that feature and letting him/(her?) work on it for few months would make huge difference. Since software development is subject to Brook's law, there won't significant loss of productivity from that one guy working on geometry tools.

                              Have you, I don't know, ever modeled a house yourself? In those older editors, or in something like sims 3, or in, say, Saurbraten/Cube 2 engine? Because you need to be familiar with the process to "get" it.

                              Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                              If you read what I posted I was careful not to say that everyone here is lazy or any specific person.
                              You're a moderator, which means you're supposed to be a shining example of good behavior, being helpful, friendly and polite. Instead you're trying to argue with people to death because they don't share your opinion. What the heck, really.

                              Thanks for posting, this is gonna be useful.
                              Last edited by NegInfinity; 12-22-2015, 11:06 PM.

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                                #90
                                Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                                If the tools are built into UE4 then you'd still have to have the same skills as a 3D artist.
                                No, not at all. Which sort of proves out that you are not really listening to what people are talking about with level design. Thanks for alerting everyone to that reality.
                                Acclivity Game Studios. Making a BP FPS, Tutorial Series on Blog : On Unreal Wiki : Twitch

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