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(VIDEO) UE4's Geometry Mode is inadequate when compared with that of Quake 1

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    One thing no one addressed yet: https://forums.unrealengine.com/show...dered-possible

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      Originally posted by sarchasm View Post
      You do realize the biggest selling FPS of last year, Black Ops 3, is still made with a **** load of brushes right? Its more brush than it is models. Go check out videos for the alpha mod tools just released, I'll wait.

      My biggest complaint about Epic's geometry tools is the builder brush, I don't want to have to find the builder brush, scale it up, type in sizes, drag verts, etc and then "make" something. Its super slow. At my last studio (we used UE3) I worked in Maya for blockouts because the BSP is so lacking and I still didn't like it despite knowing that program very well. When you're making geometry within the editor you have so much more context of the level, where the spawn is, lighting and shadows, quicker iterations, quicker testing (PIE), scale is easier to understand, etc.

      You keep bringing up performance, but there are many games being made with UE4 that aren't pushing the processing power of the platforms they run on and nor will they. Not every team is out there trying to break the next graphics barrier, where losing half a millisecond when using BSP if of any great concern. I don't think Epic would actively rebuff simpler games or limit its accessibility because you want everyone to spend less time learning Unreal and more time learning Maya. That seems completely backwards to me.

      As others have said before, even if you can argue that there aren't dozens or hundreds of teams that would prefer the simplicity of BSP for their small mobile game (or their retro shooter, etc), the crux of the matter is that it still takes too long to blockout and iterate in Unreal.
      Well that is more or less true and the old mod tools give a good tool (better than landscapes) since are for small zones a powerful tool to create walls and terrains, caves etc using the vertex

      Hevedy - Instance Tools: https://hevedy.itch.io/hevedyinstances
      Hevedy - Image Tools: https://hevedy.itch.io/imagetools

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        BSP tools are not that bad for its intended purpose.
        Fixes i would like to see

        - Create (multiple issues. Creates flipped face, creates split flipped unflipped face, does not create face at all)
        - Faces are triangulated and loses verts resulting in geometry to be corrupt. Easy to fix by deleting face and recreating but considering above it can take a few tries
        - Brush Clip. Works pretty well except if split mode is enabled it occasionally deletes faces. See above 2 points.
        - No real grid snapping. Only object position based grid snapping (having real grid snapping will speed up bsp work)
        - align pivot to face (no such feature at present.)

        I think that is about it.

        Then again i only use BSP to block out the level and then start meshing.
        there are so many mature 3d apps out there i honestly do not see why someone would spend the time and money on developing a 3d suite inside a game when the tools are already available.
        But then again... thats just my personal opinion and Epic is mature enough to make their own decisions and justifications.
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          Originally posted by JoeWintergreen View Post
          I made this handy list!

          People in this thread who are in favor of improved geometry tools as we're describing:

          me
          dishwasher
          hevedy
          chariots
          tim hobson
          zip
          rpotter
          sonkim
          soulroll
          wanderer_eternal
          zeorb
          chance
          headclot
          jason wanderer
          jared therriault
          shadowkindgames
          neurocase
          arbopa
          ruhton
          franktech
          neginfinity
          taz0
          smokey13
          skytram
          motorstep


          People in this thread who are against or even just unconvinced about improved geometry tools as we're describing:

          darthviper
          dotcam
          errvald
          kurylo
          ambershee
          cube2222
          networking

          25 to 7, yet the entire last couple pages has been argument, so you guys constitute an insanely vocal minority‚Äč.

          Make that 26 ..... Unity even worse for built in level design tools.

          Comment


            I'm not a professional developer, but I've dabbled with a lot of level design programs in the past (Quake/Hexen/Unreal) and I have to agree that UE4's current implementation is woefully lacking.

            I understand now that for AAA games levels mostly consist of static meshes created in other 3D suites and imported in, but for quick iteration and testing you really need a fast, intuitive, and powerful BSP tool. It saves the level designer time and frustration which means work gets done quicker - who can argue against that??

            I'd like to get back into level design after a rather lengthy hiatus, and while I will most likely still create assets in an actual modelling program, I'd very much prefer to be able to quickly create a rough draft of an idea, iterate on it, and then use the final result or parts of it to create more detailed static meshes. Probuilder for Unity looks exactly like what I want, though I'd rather get into UE4 for various reasons. Thankfully it looks like work is underway to creata UE4 version as well, beating Epic to the punch to something that should've been done ages ago.

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              https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/47418

              So, not only Unity has Pro Builder, but also this.

              Kinda upsetting, but no surprise there are more devs/indies using Unity than UE4.

              Comment


                Hey everyone,

                I recently came across this awesome addon for blender.



                That said - Give it a look at. It is very similar to Doom ED, DoomBuilder and SLADE.

                Give it a look at - https://matt-lucas.itch.io/level-buddy

                - HeadClot

                Edit: Sidenote - It is still in development. So There may be bugs or incomplete features.

                Comment


                  Here lies a problem - you don't want for your level to be made as single mesh. Even a single room better be made of several primitives, because of the way UE4's culling system works.

                  So CSG is still better than Bender's method. Btw, there is a plugin that imports maps made with Hammer / DarkRadiant / TrenchBroom. So far, it's the only decent method of making CSG maps and getting them into UE4.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by motorsep View Post
                    Here lies a problem - you don't want for your level to be made as single mesh. Even a single room better be made of several primitives, because of the way UE4's culling system works.

                    So CSG is still better than Bender's method. Btw, there is a plugin that imports maps made with Hammer / DarkRadiant / TrenchBroom. So far, it's the only decent method of making CSG maps and getting them into UE4.
                    Alright - Interesting. Did not know that thanks

                    Comment


                      Well if there was a vote as a content creator I would have to vote for better editing tools in UE4 but as a world builder adding editing over functionality to UE4 would be like trying to write a book using a spreadsheet app.

                      I feel that the better solution could be handled via the plugin route and create better DCC pathways through technology convergence and cloud base networking solutions and make use of the tools already being used by more than a few if not free DDC editing applications.

                      A good example

                      http://www.projectmessiah.com/x6/index.html

                      Messiah Studio can make use of an FBX service to move keyframe animations back and forth between target and host applications and there are a few applications that takes advantage of the "send to" pathway so just like you can author animation between Messiah and UE4 the same DCC pathway could be used with say a Hammer and UE4.
                      Clarke's third law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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                      Comment


                        So, what's wrong with making maps in Hammer/DarkRadiant/TrenchBroom and instantly importing them into UE4?

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                          Originally posted by motorsep View Post
                          So, what's wrong with making maps in Hammer/DarkRadiant/TrenchBroom and instantly importing them into UE4?
                          Nothing that's the way it really should be done.
                          Clarke's third law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
                          Custom Map Maker Discord
                          https://discord.gg/t48GHkA
                          Urban Terror https://www.urbanterror.info/home/

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by motorsep View Post
                            So, what's wrong with making maps in Hammer/DarkRadiant/TrenchBroom and instantly importing them into UE4?
                            Nothings really wrong, but it defeats the purpose of ineditor geometry tools. Its obviously a lot more efficient in terms of productivity to be able to design and create in editor rather than having to use an external program.
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                            Stylized Low Poly Buildings
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                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Shirk View Post
                              Nothings really wrong, but it defeats the purpose of ineditor geometry tools. Its obviously a lot more efficient in terms of productivity to be able to design and create in editor rather than having to use an external program.
                              Plus the lighting is totally different, and reference meshes needed to complete the scene are different.
                              Lumberyard / Cryengine have the right idea imho. Epic should add more advanced mesh editing tools...

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Shirk View Post
                                Nothings really wrong, but it defeats the purpose of ineditor geometry tools. Its obviously a lot more efficient in terms of productivity to be able to design and create in editor rather than having to use an external program.
                                Originally posted by franktech View Post
                                Plus the lighting is totally different, and reference meshes needed to complete the scene are different.
                                Lumberyard / Cryengine have the right idea imho. Epic should add more advanced mesh editing tools...
                                The thing is that if Epic has no time/resources to implement other, more critical features and bug fixes, they are not going to implement CSG in UE4 any time soon (or ever).

                                With currently available approach, you'd block out level in TrenchBroom for example, bring it into UE4, play test it, go back, fix it, etc. So once it's all said and done, do lighting and detail pass (with meshes) in UE4. Note that when you bring Quake's map (or HL2's map or Doom 3 map) into UE4, it is brought as bunch of static meshes, not as brushes.

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