(VIDEO) UE4's Geometry Mode is inadequate when compared with that of Quake 1

[JoeWintergreen]

By the way, moderators do not represent Epic. If you don't want an argument then stop with the hostility and at least try to have a reasonable discussion as I have.

You're charged with moderating discussions on Epic's behalf. Acting on behalf of ("representing") Epic is literally your job on here. Not well, because you've been being hostile and then pretending you weren't - basically saying "everyone in <group> is lazy", and then "I didn't say you were lazy, <member of group>!". You're strawmanning and derailing so much that I almost think you're deliberately trying to clog up the thread with garbage so that it sinks or is locked and you "win" (is there an internet word for that?).

Anyway, I've said basically this a few different times already: there's no point anybody talking to you in here. You've been reading without absorbing, with a view to refuting rather than discussing. If you want to continue the discussion, you need to get up to speed, so just go back to page one and start again, this time in good faith. Either that or you need to bow out. You're being destructive to an important discussion. Let another moderator handle this thread.

[JoeWintergreen]

I made this handy list!

People in this thread who are in favor of improved geometry tools as we're describing:

me
dishwasher
hevedy
chariots
tim hobson
zip
rpotter
sonkim
soulroll
wanderer_eternal
zeorb
chance
headclot
jason wanderer
jared therriault
shadowkindgames
neurocase
arbopa
ruhton
franktech
neginfinity
taz0
smokey13
skytram
motorstep


People in this thread who are against or even just unconvinced about improved geometry tools as we're describing:

darthviper
dotcam
errvald
kurylo
ambershee
cube2222
networking

25 to 7, yet the entire last couple pages has been argument, so you guys constitute an insanely vocal minority.

[arbopa]

[/B]The entire last couple pages has been argument, so you guys constitute an insanely vocal minority.

That's how they 'win' (in their minds). Man I wish there was a like button, I'd hit it 100 times for your post prior to this one.

[Kris]

G'day,

I can see this thread heading towards the Godwin's Law threshold.
As such, I feel the time has come to close the discussion.

If you feel I am error, please contact an Epic staff member, such as Alex, to have it reviewed and unlocked.

Have a good one!

Kris

[arbopa]

Hey Joe

This is an area that Epic is very aware that the community would like to see improved. This topic has come up a number of times before and there are plans to address this in a future release of the engine. There is no specific timeline at the moment of when this will be redone, but it is on the "To do" list.

If you're not familiar with our public Trello board for UE4 tasks you can take a look here and see it's listed at Geometry 2.0: https://trello.com/c/XfSl7gQf/91-geometry-editor-2-0

There is a add-on for the Unity Engine, Pro Builder, that the creator of that plugin is looking to port over as a plugin for UE4 which you can see in this forums post: https://forums.unrealengine.com/show...-4-Marketplace

Thanks,

Tim

Hey guys,

Let's try and turn this topic around to it's original purpose of what we would like to see improved with BSP/CSG within the engine. I know this area can be a bit contentious at times, but let's take away the positives and what Epic can consider for Geometry 2.0. While not everyone uses BPS/CSG in the editor, that's not say that they could not use some improvements. Again, this is an area Epic intends to focus some effort on in the future, and having good constructive points, similar to Joe's video, help focus in areas that are most important to the community of developers we have here. The good and the bad feedback is always welcomed.

There have been some great ideas thus far and I think Joe put together a very straight forward video to explain his point and what functionality he would like to see added.

Let's try and stay on topic with this instead of spiraling into a debate about what makes a game developer a game developer. There are a lot of people in the games industry who got their start with community Mods. I believe there are some here at Epic that came from that background, level designers even. Anyone who wants to take the time to "mod" and put forth effort into any type of game development deserves the respect.

Thanks everyone!

Tim

Thanks Joe for taking the time to put all of this together. We know BSP is important to a lot of developers and that BSP has some rough edges that could be filed upon. As Tim mentioned (thanks Tim!), Geometry 2.0 is something on our roadmap, and this sort of candid feedback is valuable when approaching it as a future feature in Unreal Engine.

Hi everyone,

If you have specific functions or features that you would like to see in Geometry Editor 2.0, we are interested in hearing your thoughts! Please make sure to post them here:

https://forums.unrealengine.com/show...gestion-thread

I have a feature request in as UE-13088 that is collecting these suggestions and have updated the feature request to reflect an increase in developers interested in this functionality. This does not guarantee that it will be immediately looked at but it does help to know how many developers want specific features and what specifically they are looking for. Thank you for this great information and post, JoeWintergreen!

Just to get this back on track, and quote the responses from Epic showing they know this is an issue and a concern to many users and want to make it better. Make sure to add any suggestions to the thread Adam linked... it's already full of loads of great ideas.

[Alexander Paschall]

Hi,

First, thank you Kris for closing the thread and giving me us a chance to speak to everyone privately.

Second, I'm reopening this thread because it because feedback and requests are what these forums are all about. Developers at Epic do see what you are asking for and it's important to us that the conversation about Geometry 2.0 keep going.

Third, I expect everyone on these forums to be respectful of each-other and professional. We are all here to see UE4 grow.

[JoeWintergreen]

Thanks Alexander and Kris and Chance!

I'm going to be testing Probuilder and probably SabreCSG for Unity in the next few days so I'll probably have a bunch of observations on how they're better/worse than/on par with UE4's tools and how they compare with Hammer.

Speaking of Hammer, HammUEr is trying to come out before Christmas! And it's Christmas Eve now, so...

[mindfane]

I would like a more powerful BSP editor within UE4. I know building an entire level out of BSP is not ideal; but you can build a skeleton of your level using BSP. I can model and UV map in blender and 3DSmax, but I am not an expert in those areas. I find BSPs more to my taste. Developing the level in a separate 3d package and then importing it into UE4 is prone to a lot of problems. If you are playing with the level's layout, you will have to swicth between both editors and do the export/import very frequently which I do not like. When I was working with UDK, I usually build skeleton of the entire level in BSP and later furnish it with static meshes.

I believe in giving people options.

That being said, if more people are asking for some other feature than a more powerful BSP editor, that should be Epic's priority.

[Keiyentai]

*blinks* I am beyond words by some of the insane and flat out rude reponces by of all people a mod. I for one would love to see the BSP/Geo tools updated a little. I don't think anyone here once said that they need to be on the level of Maya/3DSM. Also since when is wanting fast prototyping tools/features bad? I do 3D work, I work with shaders, levels etc. I'm self taught and I would rather be able to make a simple design/concept in the engine to see if I like it then go in to Maya model it, make sure the UV's are right, texture it, export it and then hope that I didn't mess up something in the process cause one thing I have noticed is when importing models and you overlook one little thing either while importing or forgetting to click something on the export menu it takes WAY TO LONG. So before going on saying that people who want better BSP tools to map stuff out quickly have no talent with 3D art is outright insulting esepcially coming for a moderator. As for "just use assets that are modeled" like it's been said sometimes artists who make said assets go on leave or have to leave the project cause of whatever reason so "waiting for the artist to make it" is not always the answer cause I for a bit felt the same forgetting my roots of modding levels when I was younger and it delayed my project my team is working on by a year.

So I think it is safe to say that asking Epic to look in to improving said tools a little is not much to ask. As for your insulting and only replies being completely negative honestly bothers me cause until now I have felt that the Unreal Forums to be one of the best if not the best communities for any engine and I have used a lot of engines since 1998 and in one thread you have made me rethink of wanting to be apart of it. It's mods like you that makes people and small teams leave and not want to even ask for help or advise. Discraceful.

[Oul]

Epic should just build a complete, robust 3D editor package inside UE4 on par with Max or Maya. I'm only 1/5th serious.

[NegInfinity]

Epic should just build a complete, robust 3D editor package inside UE4 on par with Max or Maya. I'm only 1/5th serious.

If it is geared towards level design instead of trying to be "everything at once" like ye average modeling package, it actually can turn into attractive tool that would bring more users to the engine.

However, it would make sense to fix BSP problems first and only then look for a ways to go beyond that.

[JoeWintergreen]

Unreal's current BSP system really needs to be deprecated entirely and replaced with a new system, which I believe is the plan. Which is great, but it's probably going to be a while :P

[KamiKaii]

Epic should just build a complete, robust 3D editor package inside UE4 on par with Max or Maya. I'm only 1/5th serious.

Eventhough this is an unlikely extreme, it would still be a more favorable one than the opposite extreme the tools are in now. But no one is really asking for such tools anyway. What I believe most people in this thread want is for the tool (geo 2.0) to atleast support complete blocking out of levels without going back and forth from UE4 - 3D package. To a degree you can do that today, but goodluck doing that today without going mad. (thank you ze0rb for SuperGrid)

In UDK I accepted the state of BSP because I accepted that the engine was being built for AAA anyway (AAA will extend the tools to their needs) and UDK was an afterthought. UE4 is being marketed to everyone, from a solo hobbyist, a modder (UT4/ARK) to AAA studios and everything in-between. The tools should accommodate this and the minority opposing that Epic spend resources towards building this tool should consider that this might just be the most significant improvement Epic can make to grow UE4's share in the < AAA space. As for expecting everyone to adopt your "perfect" pipeline is just silly and isn't even what many AAA studios consider the right pipeline. UE4 can be more AAA and more Indie than any other engine without having to be one more than the other. If UE4 grows, we all benefit.

As for your insulting and only replies being completely negative honestly bothers me cause until now I have felt that the Unreal Forums to be one of the best if not the best communities for any engine and I have used a lot of engines since 1998 and in one thread you have made me rethink of wanting to be apart of it. It's mods like you that makes people and small teams leave and not want to even ask for help or advise. Discraceful.

Also this, very much this. I normally hate to jump on someone that's already being cornered but the behaviour by a mod (imo) representing Epic in this thread is highly unprofessional and unacceptable.

[JoeWintergreen]

Agreed all round.

Also, HammUEr is out! The best stopgap you'll get until Epic make Geo 2.0, plus you can port all your old Quake/HL/Source levels.

[NegInfinity]

Unreal's current BSP system really needs to be deprecated entirely and replaced with a new system, which I believe is the plan. Which is great, but it's probably going to be a while :P

Heck, no.
Golden rule in programming is that "newer and shinier doesn't mean better".
BSP approach worked for years in other engines, and deprecating it completely would be downright silly.
"Completely new system" will take years and projects are being built NOW.

It will be better to just fix the bsps.

Or FIRST build a replacement and only THEN deprecate stuff.

Otherwise it'll be like that situation with cascade. UE Answerhub says that cascade development is abandoned, except the "niagara" replacement for the cascade isn't there yet.