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    Originally posted by arbopa View Post
    Have you gone on steam and seen what is popular? I am guessing not, because one can not make such a statement if they pay attention to what is selling and what people are playing. As to using UE4 because they want things to look as good as they can... um... there are engines that do BETTER with some rendering and lighting... if people wanted 'better' they would be using those.

    Google level design, do some reading. Interesting and good level design is hard to find anymore.



    What about today's games aren't interesting? Battlefront is one of the best looking games of all time. Bloodborne is a masterpiece, you're saying those games have less interesting level design?
    I'm guessing you haven't either because the vast majority of top selling games use very little to no BSP and have a focus on high quality graphics. Lighting and rendering aren't the only thing that makes something look good, the environments in Battlefront are organic and complex, something that would be difficult if not impossible to do with BSP. If you think level design isn't good any more, then that's your issue. Games are making more than they did before so trends don't support your views.
    Last edited by darthviper107; 12-23-2015, 06:11 PM.

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      Originally posted by Skytram View Post
      Just want to point out that many of the best and most popular games ever made used BSP for level design, which in and of itself is an objectively good argument for considering including it.
      BSP hasn't been the primary level design/dressing methodology for about a decade now. We need better massout tools in Unreal 4 that's for sure, but let's not muddy the waters with things that Epic knows firsthand isn't true.

      Comment


        Originally posted by motorsep View Post
        Again, not every UE4 user is a part of AAA studio. A lot of indies use UE4 and 95% of indies do not have resources to create AAA art of Bloodborne.

        It's not about masterpiece vs flat surface with normal maps purchased from marketplace. It's about getting levels done in timely manner with resources at hand. For indies it's CSG as seen in Quake/CS.

        I'd love for my games to look like AAA games. However, I either need time (which waits for no one) or a ton of money to hire a squad of AAA artists. Neither is feasible to obtain.
        You can achieve high quality without having to have tons of money. Expensive software won't do anything if you don't have any skill to use them, and a skilled person could make something good whether they were using Blender or 3ds Max. I've seen many indies do a much better job than Counter Strike.

        Comment


          Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
          You can achieve high quality without having to have tons of money. Expensive software won't do anything if you don't have any skill to use them, and a skilled person could make something good whether they were using Blender or 3ds Max. I've seen many indies do a much better job than Counter Strike.
          You kidding right? No, you must be kidding, because making art has nothing to do with software. It's the most time consuming part of game development. That's why there 100 artist on 10 programmers in AAA studios. And games still take years to make. How do you expect a small indie team (especially without external funding) or a lone developer to make same quality of a 200 strong AAA team.

          Hell, even even III (AAA-indies) have money to outsource art or have bunch of artists in-house.

          Doesn't matter how skilled you are - you need to make 100 pcs of art, code the game, make levels, you want to cut down you production time. There is no way to iterate 3D art efficiently when it comes to level design. That's what CSG/BSP is for. Not to mention you can leave it as-is and simply add a few 3D models here and there, instead of modeling entire level to conform to BSP layout.

          Anyhow, it sounds like there are more people wanting good BSP tools and I am guessing it's just a matter of priorities for Epic at this point.

          Comment


            Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
            I'm guessing you haven't either because the vast majority of top selling games use very little to no BSP and have a focus on high quality graphics.
            You are looking at multi-million dollar AAA games. Dude, you really need to move on, you have said your peace, we get it, you think others are lazy because they do not work like you do. I still find it a joke that Epic let's someone as argumentative and rude as you to be a moderator.

            Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
            You can achieve high quality without having to have tons of money.
            Time is someone nobody can buy. Again, that you do not seem to get that makes it clear you are not even trying to understand the views of others. Yeah, we get it, you will use overkill for your projects, now quit hating on those that do not agree with you.
            Acclivity Game Studios. Making a BP FPS, Tutorial Series on Blog : On Unreal Wiki : Twitch

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              Originally posted by motorsep View Post
              You kidding right? No, you must be kidding, because making art has nothing to do with software. It's the most time consuming part of game development. That's why there 100 artist on 10 programmers in AAA studios. And games still take years to make. How do you expect a small indie team (especially without external funding) or a lone developer to make same quality of a 200 strong AAA team.

              Hell, even even III (AAA-indies) have money to outsource art or have bunch of artists in-house.

              Doesn't matter how skilled you are - you need to make 100 pcs of art, code the game, make levels, you want to cut down you production time. There is no way to iterate 3D art efficiently when it comes to level design. That's what CSG/BSP is for. Not to mention you can leave it as-is and simply add a few 3D models here and there, instead of modeling entire level to conform to BSP layout.

              Anyhow, it sounds like there are more people wanting good BSP tools and I am guessing it's just a matter of priorities for Epic at this point.
              Art doesn't actually take that long once you know what you want to make, what wastes time is figuring out what the game is going to be--for example, Bioshock Infinite took 5 years to make, yet probably half of that time was wasted because they changed their minds. There was a huge amount of work that didn't get used. For an indie studio it's more about managing scope, you can't make something as big as GTAV, but you can make something of the same quality if it's smaller. And people have done some extremely high quality work with very small teams.

              Comment


                Originally posted by arbopa View Post
                You are looking at multi-million dollar AAA games. Dude, you really need to move on, you have said your peace, we get it, you think others are lazy because they do not work like you do. I still find it a joke that Epic let's someone as argumentative and rude as you to be a moderator.



                Time is someone nobody can buy. Again, that you do not seem to get that makes it clear you are not even trying to understand the views of others. Yeah, we get it, you will use overkill for your projects, now quit hating on those that do not agree with you.
                I think it's lazy for people to want Epic to put time into developing a feature simply because they don't want to use tools outside of the editor. Someone isn't rude just because they disagree with you.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                  Art doesn't actually take that long once you know what you want to make, what wastes time is figuring out what the game is going to be--for example, Bioshock Infinite took 5 years to make, yet probably half of that time was wasted because they changed their minds. There was a huge amount of work that didn't get used. For an indie studio it's more about managing scope, you can't make something as big as GTAV, but you can make something of the same quality if it's smaller. And people have done some extremely high quality work with very small teams.
                  You said it - managing scope. Managing scope == not making AAA game, which also means BSP levels would work much better for indie production than AAA pipeline.

                  You can sure make 1-level game that is a size of average Quake 1 DM level, and make it look like Gears of War 1, but you will spend a few years on it. Will you recover the cost? No, you will not. Not to mention any expansion you will do now have to look at least as good as your initial game.

                  I don't think you actually made a game, from scratch. Not a mod, not a show case for UE4, but actual game. I did and working on another one and I can tell you that it takes me less time to script something than actually make art that is driven by that script. Concept (whether drawn or imagined) + high poly + low poly + baking + texturing + setting **** up takes much longer than wring code.

                  Even going by pricing for contract work, a lot of gameplay stuff cost less to make (and takes less time to make) than a single static model. Don't even get me started with animated models and characters. And to make actual playable level, with models, would probably cost as much as simple gameplay of entire small game.

                  Comment


                    Not making a AAA game doesn't mean you need to make your game out of BSP, which given that Indies have done it without having to use BSP it's clear that BSP isn't necessary for indies to be successful. Not that BSP is an advantage in the first place anyways. It seems it's only a way of working that some people prefer and not something that's really going to improve game development.

                    And by the way, the team that worked on Gears of War 1 was extremely small, like 20 people I believe, being indie doesn't mean you can't have a complete game of high quality. And again, BSP doesn't necessarily make it easier, because you can still do what you need to with a 3D app and it's not going to take longer. As evidenced by the many games that do that already.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                      I think it's lazy for people to want Epic to put time into developing a feature simply because they don't want to use tools outside of the editor. Someone isn't rude just because they disagree with you.
                      Again with assumptions and putting down others. Great job you are doing there Mr. Moderator, representative of Epic.

                      What people want is basic tools for level creation that they should not need to use external tools for.

                      Seriously, WT hell are you still in this thread? Just to pick fights? You don't want the feature, fine. Let those that do discuss what they want.
                      Acclivity Game Studios. Making a BP FPS, Tutorial Series on Blog : On Unreal Wiki : Twitch

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                        Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                        Not that BSP is an advantage in the first place anyways.
                        Oh, it is - you don't need to know a 3D apps. If you are a programmer who isn't an artist, you can make your maps with BSP and they will still look good. In other words, you can have entire game made without artists, then use it to either pitch to an investor/publisher and get a team of artists finishing it up, or pitch it to the community and find artists to join you.

                        Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                        And by the way, the team that worked on Gears of War 1 was extremely small, like 20 people I believe, being indie doesn't mean you can't have a complete game of high quality. And again, BSP doesn't necessarily make it easier, because you can still do what you need to with a 3D app and it's not going to take longer. As evidenced by the many games that do that already.
                        Yep, small team called Epic Games, strapped with _cash_, lots of it. We, garage indies, work days jobs that suck out energy of us and all we have is 2-3 hrs at evening and maybe on weekends. If you think most indies are single teens living in parent's basement and doing nothing but working on games all day - think again, and hard.

                        So, I think, to stop this from escalating into anything and wasting people's time, Epic needs to say whether they have time / desire to deal with it or should we ask again maybe in the Q4 of 2016. I bet no one will drop UE4 because the tools aren't coming soon.

                        Also, there is this tool: http://www.protoolsforunity3d.com/probuilder/ for Unity, and last time I heard they intend bringing it to UE4. Maybe Epic can help make it happen sooner ?
                        Last edited by motorsep; 12-23-2015, 08:31 PM.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by arbopa View Post
                          Again with assumptions and putting down others. Great job you are doing there Mr. Moderator, representative of Epic.

                          What people want is basic tools for level creation that they should not need to use external tools for.

                          Seriously, WT hell are you still in this thread? Just to pick fights? You don't want the feature, fine. Let those that do discuss what they want.
                          By the way, moderators do not represent Epic. If you don't want an argument then stop with the hostility and at least try to have a reasonable discussion as I have.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by motorsep View Post
                            Oh, it is - you don't need to know a 3D apps. If you are a programmer who isn't an artist, you can make your maps with BSP and they will still look good.
                            What skills does a programmer have that suddenly using BSP gives them the ability to design something that looks good that doesn't require the skills of a 3D artist?


                            I don't get how people think that 3D modeling doesn't require 3D modeling skills and BSP will somehow avoid the need for that type of skill.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                              What skills does a programmer have that suddenly using BSP gives them the ability to design something that looks good that doesn't require the skills of a 3D artist?

                              I don't get how people think that 3D modeling doesn't require 3D modeling skills and BSP will somehow avoid the need for that type of skill.
                              You don't get the difference between Lego and traditional sculpting.

                              You need to own 3DS MAX or Maya, and then you need to learn it. You need to learn Blender, which for whatever reason has steeper learning curve. Where on Earth do you have time to learn everything ?!

                              Do you need to learn 3D modeling skills (which happen to also require UV mapping) to block out level in UE4? No, you do not. Nether did people who made Unreal, Quake, Doom, RTCW, etc. (older BSP based games). Texturing brushes doesn't require UV mapping. So make a textures cube with 6 sides only takes so much time with BSP. It takes longer in 3D app. And once you need to adjust volume of the cube, you have to adjust UV maps in 3D app. You don't have to with BSP brushes.

                              It would be more productive if you have used both, 3D app and BSP level editor. Then you'd know the difference.

                              On another note, it doesn't have to be BSP brushes per se. It can be meshes (with auto UV mapping like brushes in Hammer/Radiant), but with tools like ProBuilder (and 3D grid snapping like in Trenchbroom) and decent real-time CSG inside of UE4.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                                By the way, moderators do not represent Epic. If you don't want an argument then stop with the hostility and at least try to have a reasonable discussion as I have.
                                Yes, it is Epic's forum, thus those they pick to moderate are representatives of the site and thus Epic.

                                If I don't want an argument then stop with the hostility???? You are the one that has done nothing for two days except cause hate on this thread, calling people lazy, and refusing to even consider the views of anyone but yourself. You haven't had a discussion, you have been talking down to all those you disagree with, non stop.

                                Sorry, I don't play little games like you are trying to pull off, you are being condescending and argumentative. Perhaps moderating on a political debate forum would be more your style.
                                Acclivity Game Studios. Making a BP FPS, Tutorial Series on Blog : On Unreal Wiki : Twitch

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