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    Originally posted by The_Distiller View Post
    The current situation being Epic will further improve the LPV GI solution
    Don't you mean Lionhead?

    Comment


      Three weeks ago I asked this:
      "I wonder what the timeline is on improving the LPV integration at the moment (like the improvements Martin mentioned in the rendering update stream from April 10th)"

      Answer from DanielW:
      "I asked Martin what the improvements were he had in mind, will see soon."


      Ideally Lionhead will provide Epic with their latest LPV code and they will take it from there, I hope the new Fable won't stand in the way of this. Like, it has to be released before Lionhead is allowed to share any code and stuff like that...
      ArtStation - Portfolio

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        Actually I read in a few staff posts that just a few things are missing from code shared by Lionhead (and what is missing will probably be in 4.5), so looks Epic will work in a custom solution now to improve the LPV or implement other system.

        Comment


          I don't think LPV is a path that will lead to a method that works the way that people want

          Comment


            O noticed that in 4.5, RSM step takes about 10ms(!!) for LPV. I don't know what is exactly included in it (only generating RSM, light injection, etc)m but that's just way to much.
            Porpagate step is another 5ms.

            In the end, it's about 15ms, for GI, that doesn't look that good to begin with, where light propagation have short distance, thus producing artifacts, and in which specular reflections are not as good as, as with cone traced solution.

            That being said, technique have it merits, but there is something broken in current release, and it could be really changed to use voxelized scene repesentation for better results, as I posted before.
            https://github.com/iniside/ActionRPGGame - Action RPG Starter kit. Work in Progress. You can use it in whatever way you wish.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Bladerskb View Post
              that's not true. The 980 and 970 architecture was built specifically with it in mind but it will work with other Nvidia cards and even amd cards. Also Nvidia's VXGI is alot cheaper than SVOGI.
              Also Nvidia implementation comes with quality settings that you change that affects computation time.
              GTX 770 averages between 7.4 to 12.9ms
              GTX TITAN averages between 6.6 to 9.6ms.

              In comparasion, DFAO costs 4.5ms on a 7970 at 1080p
              I'm not sure if something that can take 12 ms per frame on a 770 could be called the "biggest selling point" of a game engine.
              It's a cool technique, but good luck getting any acceptable framerates with that.

              Comment


                Originally posted by iniside View Post
                O noticed that in 4.5, RSM step takes about 10ms(!!) for LPV. I don't know what is exactly included in it (only generating RSM, light injection, etc)m but that's just way to much.
                Porpagate step is another 5ms.

                In the end, it's about 15ms, for GI, that doesn't look that good to begin with, where light propagation have short distance, thus producing artifacts, and in which specular reflections are not as good as, as with cone traced solution.

                That being said, technique have it merits, but there is something broken in current release, and it could be really changed to use voxelized scene repesentation for better results, as I posted before.
                Hmmm...interesting. In 4.4 its also eating up 12ms at least (in our game), so this might not only be broken in 4.5. Do you at least have more features for LPVs in 4.5? Like skylight injection or so? Because in 4.4 its still not very usefull anyways since everything that should be sky is just a yellow/greenish blurry mess. An there is nothing that looks close to what Lionhead showed in their blog...and that was still not feature complete but already way ahead of the current implementation.

                Also what I would definitely recommend is, to exclude small geo from the LPVs. I was able to gain 8ms in the office by just removing everything from contributing to the LPV thats not walls, roofs, big things like cars, beds, wall units etc. So all small stuff was completely removed for contribution and that already saved our heads in regards to running on consoles. Despite the fact that the current LPV integration only really works for PC and XBox One...PS4 is something completely different (guess Lionhead didnt bother with that since they are developing for MS^^)
                Check out UNREAL 4 Lighting Academy
                https://forums.unrealengine.com/show...ng-like-that-)

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Daedalus51 View Post
                  Hmmm...interesting. In 4.4 its also eating up 12ms at least (in our game), so this might not only be broken in 4.5. Do you at least have more features for LPVs in 4.5? Like skylight injection or so? Because in 4.4 its still not very usefull anyways since everything that should be sky is just a yellow/greenish blurry mess. An there is nothing that looks close to what Lionhead showed in their blog...and that was still not feature complete but already way ahead of the current implementation.

                  Also what I would definitely recommend is, to exclude small geo from the LPVs. I was able to gain 8ms in the office by just removing everything from contributing to the LPV thats not walls, roofs, big things like cars, beds, wall units etc. So all small stuff was completely removed for contribution and that already saved our heads in regards to running on consoles. Despite the fact that the current LPV integration only really works for PC and XBox One...PS4 is something completely different (guess Lionhead didnt bother with that since they are developing for MS^^)
                  No, it's pretty much the same.

                  Well funny thing is, that most of my scene is composed from walls, with wood beams. It's hardly complicated geometry. I say pretty standard cottage medieval houses.

                  I would be nice to get detailed break down of that RSM stat mean in stats.

                  Basing on what saying about smaller objects, I think voxeling geometry in scene, and then injecting lights, would improve performance. Somwhat, as voxelization step would get rid of all small geometry, and left only fairly simple data structure to inject light.


                  Anyway, my point is. If Voxel technique will eat similar amount of ms, and look incomparably better.. That is no brainer to what is of better use.
                  https://github.com/iniside/ActionRPGGame - Action RPG Starter kit. Work in Progress. You can use it in whatever way you wish.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Daedalus51 View Post
                    Hmmm...interesting. In 4.4 its also eating up 12ms at least (in our game), so this might not only be broken in 4.5. Do you at least have more features for LPVs in 4.5? Like skylight injection or so? Because in 4.4 its still not very usefull anyways since everything that should be sky is just a yellow/greenish blurry mess. An there is nothing that looks close to what Lionhead showed in their blog...and that was still not feature complete but already way ahead of the current implementation.

                    Also what I would definitely recommend is, to exclude small geo from the LPVs. I was able to gain 8ms in the office by just removing everything from contributing to the LPV thats not walls, roofs, big things like cars, beds, wall units etc. So all small stuff was completely removed for contribution and that already saved our heads in regards to running on consoles. Despite the fact that the current LPV integration only really works for PC and XBox One...PS4 is something completely different (guess Lionhead didnt bother with that since they are developing for MS^^)
                    12ms, yikes! I still haven't tested LPV myself as I've heard there is an issue where if you have Material Layers with a layer that acts like a glass that calculates refraction, that it can crash the engine. I extremely want the need to drop Lightmass at this point and go fully dynamic. The new game I am developing is primarily based in outdoor environments so going with a good GI solution has been my ideal goal once I can take advantage of it. At the moment, is there a thread that already lists all the current issues when enabling LPV? I've looked and I've found scattered results.

                    I also agree, I do think Epic is going to be looking real hard at what the right approach is on this feature. VXGI is being advertised as only working on 9xx series but since this is part of GameWorks, one could hope that this would be scalable enough that it could exist on more than just PC and GTX 9xx or above. Like Ray Davis mentioned, Epic probably needs some more justification to handle the implementation themselves if platform support is too limited. I personally haven't looked into it but I am not sure if the other engine's GI solutions are multi-platform. If so, then Epic needs a solution that is cross-compatible as well if they really want to compete with the ones currently available. Also, if I'm not mistaken, isn't UE4 the only next-gen engine that doesn't support SLI?

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by MC Stryker View Post
                      12ms, yikes! I still haven't tested LPV myself as I've heard there is an issue where if you have Material Layers with a layer that acts like a glass that calculates refraction, that it can crash the engine. I extremely want the need to drop Lightmass at this point and go fully dynamic. The new game I am developing is primarily based in outdoor environments so going with a good GI solution has been my ideal goal once I can take advantage of it. At the moment, is there a thread that already lists all the current issues when enabling LPV? I've looked and I've found scattered results.

                      I also agree, I do think Epic is going to be looking real hard at what the right approach is on this feature. VXGI is being advertised as only working on 9xx series but since this is part of GameWorks, one could hope that this would be scalable enough that it could exist on more than just PC and GTX 9xx or above. Like Ray Davis mentioned, Epic probably needs some more justification to handle the implementation themselves if platform support is too limited. I personally haven't looked into it but I am not sure if the other engine's GI solutions are multi-platform. If so, then Epic needs a solution that is cross-compatible as well if they really want to compete with the ones currently available. Also, if I'm not mistaken, isn't UE4 the only next-gen engine that doesn't support SLI?
                      So, just to pick up some things you mentioned:

                      First of all, you can prevent the engine from crashing because of translucent materials if you do these two things Actually, even if the name for the second thing (check the box...the not checked box is the default^^)doesnt sound like doing this (because it actually makes indirect light from emissive) but its the recommended way of disabling a translucent material for the LPV:
                      Click image for larger version

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                      So...as far as I know, there is no whole thread covering good solutions for dynamic lighting just right now, however, I would say that I could give you quite some good insights on this in a more fitting environment (than just spamming this thread :P) if you want to^^ But hey....we could also start a thread like this and discuss what people do to achive certain results dynamically in UE4 right now! That sounds actually quite cool^^ (Might do that...but I think weekend would be better for this....have to collect all resources and screens first^^)

                      Gut feeling about what I would start out with if I were you, I would definitely still recommend LPVs with the mentioned optimization for you (remove small stuff) in combination with a skylight (but then it gets more tricky if you use a dynamic one, because you dont wanna pay DFAO with LPVs together^^).

                      Yeah...just some thoughts on this, and now I´ll be quite with stuff thats not really thread related

                      Cheers!
                      Check out UNREAL 4 Lighting Academy
                      https://forums.unrealengine.com/show...ng-like-that-)

                      Comment


                        In addition to Daedalus's tips you may want to use a skylight with little intensity to give life to translucent materials(especially glass) since they dont receive any light or reflection with LPV only. Also LPV looks pretty well in a GTA/Watchdogs sort of environment. Check out the video in my last post here: https://forums.unrealengine.com/show...l=1#post144187
                        I still got to try the console command Daedalus mentioned in iniside's thread and see if i can handle interiors(shops and stuff) together with this setup. Using PP volumes for interiors to disable LPV and using reflection captures should work i believe. We'll see...fun stuff!
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                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Stefan Lundmark View Post
                          I'm not sure if something that can take 12 ms per frame on a 770 could be called the "biggest selling point" of a game engine.
                          It's a cool technique, but good luck getting any acceptable framerates with that.
                          Having done some voxel cone tracing stuff myself, this is indeed the current problem, and NVIDIA's own implementations have been consistently disappointing in terms of performance. I wouldn't bet on anyone actually using their provided library.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Frenetic Pony View Post
                            Having done some voxel cone tracing stuff myself, this is indeed the current problem, and NVIDIA's own implementations have been consistently disappointing in terms of performance. I wouldn't bet on anyone actually using their provided library.
                            Here is a recent talk by one of the developers (Alexey Panteleev) of NVIDIA’s clipmap based voxel cone tracing technique (which is presumably what they call VXGI in the Moon landing article). It looks quite promising because they have implemented it in a very scallable way ranging from only 12MB to 2.5GB of memory usage. One of the slides shows that GI only requires 12.9 ms on a GTX 770 and allegedly allows for better quality AO than screen-space techniques even on low-end hardware. At lower resolutions there is a lot of light leaking, however. Light leaking generally remains a problem for thin objects, but I could imagine that’s something artists can work around.

                            Comment


                              http://images.anandtech.com/doci/854...erview-(7).jpg

                              If you believe this table VXGI is new library.
                              https://github.com/iniside/ActionRPGGame - Action RPG Starter kit. Work in Progress. You can use it in whatever way you wish.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Daedalus51 View Post
                                So, just to pick up some things you mentioned:

                                First of all, you can prevent the engine from crashing because of translucent materials if you do these two things Actually, even if the name for the second thing (check the box...the not checked box is the default^^)doesnt sound like doing this (because it actually makes indirect light from emissive) but its the recommended way of disabling a translucent material for the LPV:
                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]12353[/ATTACH]
                                [ATTACH=CONFIG]12354[/ATTACH]

                                So...as far as I know, there is no whole thread covering good solutions for dynamic lighting just right now, however, I would say that I could give you quite some good insights on this in a more fitting environment (than just spamming this thread :P) if you want to^^ But hey....we could also start a thread like this and discuss what people do to achive certain results dynamically in UE4 right now! That sounds actually quite cool^^ (Might do that...but I think weekend would be better for this....have to collect all resources and screens first^^)

                                Gut feeling about what I would start out with if I were you, I would definitely still recommend LPVs with the mentioned optimization for you (remove small stuff) in combination with a skylight (but then it gets more tricky if you use a dynamic one, because you dont wanna pay DFAO with LPVs together^^).

                                Yeah...just some thoughts on this, and now I´ll be quite with stuff thats not really thread related

                                Cheers!
                                Yes!!! That's I guess going to suffice but you've given me hope on at least being able to transition or give LPV a shot. BTW, that thread doesn't sound bad, and considering how popular GI is *cough* that would be helpful for others. Also, what are your impressions of DFAO so far? From what I'm hearing, it sounds like its a great addition to LPV. But thanks for the heads up on disabling anything that is translucent. Another thing is translucent shading really needs an upgrade and is pretty limiting. I know it's been on the Roadmap for a while but I really hope Epic is considering getting in improvements or other alternatives/shading models for translucent materials. Right now, I have a big problem with ordering with translucent materials even down to the polys on a StaticMesh. I've tuned the materials for the time being so you don't notice the issues but hopefully improvements are in the pipe sometime soon. Thanks for the reply bud

                                Originally posted by Jacky View Post
                                In addition to Daedalus's tips you may want to use a skylight with little intensity to give life to translucent materials(especially glass) since they dont receive any light or reflection with LPV only. Also LPV looks pretty well in a GTA/Watchdogs sort of environment. Check out the video in my last post here: https://forums.unrealengine.com/show...l=1#post144187
                                I still got to try the console command Daedalus mentioned in iniside's thread and see if i can handle interiors(shops and stuff) together with this setup. Using PP volumes for interiors to disable LPV and using reflection captures should work i believe. We'll see...fun stuff!
                                Thanks for the tip Jacky on making the translucent materials have a little more depth! BTW, I saw your thread a while ago and that's a really awesome Challenger with some pretty killer materials, great job! What's the link to inisides's thread that you mentioned? That's a interesting switch off between using LPV for the outside and going with PP Volumes for the inside. If the console command hopefully doesn't provide a jarring feeling when transition from LPV to PP Volumes, that could be sufficient. Great idea!

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