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    #46
    I'd just like to toss out the fact that people have confirmation biases towards any languages they already know. If you seriously consider yourself to be a professional developer and you plan on doing it for the rest of your life, you should embrace every new (to you) language and jump at the chance to learn a new one. You will be amazed at how much you'll learn in the process, make yourself a better developer, and be able to get much higher salaries in the long run.

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      #47
      Originally posted by Furroy View Post
      I'd just like to toss out the fact that people have confirmation biases towards any languages they already know. If you seriously consider yourself to be a professional developer and you plan on doing it for the rest of your life, you should embrace every new (to you) language and jump at the chance to learn a new one. You will be amazed at how much you'll learn in the process, make yourself a better developer, and be able to get much higher salaries in the long run.
      doubt that Never seen C#/Java/C++ in the same request

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        #48
        I would hire guy which know C++ and C# over anyone who know just C# or Java. Just sayin.
        https://github.com/iniside/ActionRPGGame - Action RPG Starter kit. Work in Progress. You can use it in whatever way you wish.

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          #49
          Originally posted by iniside View Post
          I would hire guy which know C++ and C# over anyone who know just C# or Java. Just sayin.
          Whatabout Java + Hibernate / C# + Entity over C++ + Java + C#?

          if the solution is just to learn C++ then what is the purpose of blueprints? I'm not against C++, i'm against the blueprints system, too complicated if compared with C#, no advantages in using it

          EDIT:
          what I want to say is that it would be great to know everything but we just can't. And C++ seems too big of a challange for a lot of people while blueprints gives you not enough advantages by learning it.
          Last edited by MaxiHori; 01-15-2015, 03:50 PM.

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            #50
            Originally posted by MaxiHori View Post
            Whatabout Java + Hibernate / C# + Entity over C++ + Java + C#?

            if the solution is just to learn C++ then what is the purpose of blueprints? I'm not against C++, i'm against the blueprints system, too complicated if compared with C#, no advantages in using it
            Since when you need Hiberante for game development ?

            You see. You miss the point. Different industries have different requirements, and one of the gamedev is knowing C++.
            On the other hand learning C++, will teach you more about how things works, not just taking for granted they works.


            I won't go into this debate. The long story short is that blueprints are much easier to understand for non programmers. And if you consider yourself an programmer, you should not have any troubles learning C++. Especially in unreal streamlined version.
            https://github.com/iniside/ActionRPGGame - Action RPG Starter kit. Work in Progress. You can use it in whatever way you wish.

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              #51
              Originally posted by iniside View Post
              Since when you need Hiberante for game development ? ... And if you consider yourself an programmer, you should not have any troubles learning C++. Especially in unreal streamlined version.
              Since when you need Java and C# for game development?
              You said that you would hire a person that know both C++ and C#, but I'd rather prefer C++ and AMP.
              But again, im NOT against C++, i'm against blueprints

              Originally posted by iniside View Post
              Different industries have different requirements, and one of the gamedev is knowing C++.
              Then there is no point in having a blueprint system

              Originally posted by iniside View Post
              The long story short is that blueprints are much easier to understand for non programmers.
              Nobody had any problem with C# in Unity, since that you are going to learn something, why would you choose the blueprints if there is something better, more usefull (even outside of UE4) and that require the same level of effort?

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                #52
                It seems to me, you never tried to teach total layman, coding.
                People pickup blueprint instantly (connect few nodes and it's working!). No to so much when they have to type code.

                You said that you would hire a person that know both C++ and C#, but I'd rather prefer C++ and AMP.
                Well yes. Solely on reason, because I'm pretty sure such person will want to learn new things. And C++ gives good basics, for learning large family of languages.


                Anyway. C# in UE4 by Epic is not going to happen. To many people are adamant against it.
                https://github.com/iniside/ActionRPGGame - Action RPG Starter kit. Work in Progress. You can use it in whatever way you wish.

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by MaxiHori View Post
                  The point isn't "is C# better than C++"? but "is C# better than blueprints?".
                  and of course, IT IS, in any way (even easier to learn).
                  Blueprints work great for the high level interactions of your game, with C++ doing the heavy lifting. Blueprints are not there to replace code, they are there to augment it. While it is totally possible to create a game with nothing but blueprints, doing so has limits. Blueprints are extremely easy to understand from a programming perspective, they are basically a node based C# scripting language.

                  Don't think of them as a full solution if you are making a large game, let the code do all of the work and use blueprints for simpler tasks. A hybrid approach works extremely well.

                  Also C++ in UE4 is not as bad as you think, once you learn the API you will find UE4 code half way between C# and raw C++, a lot of the work is done by the compiler (such as GC). I also have a C# background (app development Forms/WPF mainly) and used blueprints for the first few months while I was learning UE4. Recently I decided it was time to learn the API and I am really glad I did, I can see why Epic made the C++ decision and I agree they made the right choice. Once you get over the complexity of the language, you will see it is not as bad as it may seem.
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                    #54
                    I like the blueprints system, I currenty use it. I did some C++ years ago and im perfectly fine with it and im not a bit against it.

                    Let's make it easier: if there were 2 choices for scripting (just scripting, not programming) and those choices were blueprints and C#, and you don't know either of them, what you would go for?
                    I think that everyone would choose C# for the reasons states above (takes the same time to learn both blueprints and C# if we use it only for scripting, blueprints knowledge is useless outside of UE4, C# is far more productive).

                    Once again, I'm NOT suggesting to remove C++, im suggesting to replace blueprints with C#

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                      #55
                      Originally posted by MaxiHori View Post
                      I like the blueprints system, I currenty use it. I did some C++ years ago and im perfectly fine with it and im not a bit against it.

                      Let's make it easier: if there were 2 choices for scripting (just scripting, not programming) and those choices were blueprints and C#, and you don't know either of them, what you would go for?
                      I think that everyone would choose C# for the reasons states above (takes the same time to learn both blueprints and C# if we use it only for scripting, blueprints knowledge is useless outside of UE4, C# is far more productive).

                      Once again, I'm NOT suggesting to remove C++, im suggesting to replace blueprints with C#
                      Let me remind you that blueprint already replacing scripting language called UnrealScript which been used since first Unreal game. Goal of blueprint is to let artists to do some scripting without them learning any syntax and just draw the graph which is a lot simpler task and a lot easier to learn. I guess Epic though that those people who prefer coding will go to C++, which UE always had but only for licensed developers and where APIs don't really change there and it'a lot better then UnrealScript
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                        #56
                        Originally posted by MaxiHori View Post
                        I like the blueprints system, I currenty use it. I did some C++ years ago and im perfectly fine with it and im not a bit against it.

                        Let's make it easier: if there were 2 choices for scripting (just scripting, not programming) and those choices were blueprints and C#, and you don't know either of them, what you would go for?
                        I think that everyone would choose C# for the reasons states above (takes the same time to learn both blueprints and C# if we use it only for scripting, blueprints knowledge is useless outside of UE4, C# is far more productive).

                        Once again, I'm NOT suggesting to remove C++, im suggesting to replace blueprints with C#
                        You are comparing C# with blueprints and I don't think that's right at all. Blueprints are very very easy. Anyone can dive into them. Artists, level designers, programmers, hobbits(!) and hobbyists. Most next gen engines I've seen being used do support visual scripting in one way or another (Cryengine, Snowdrop, etc.) . It has becomed sort of a standard because no matter what are you are touching, visual scripting will always be easier to pick up than text scripting if you have no programming background. It's not that C# would be harder to learn, but some people would just like to stay from code completely if it's not their area. No matter how easy or hard it would be. Visual scripting breaks that barrier.

                        Anyways, text-based scripting language wouldn't be a bad idea for an intermediate point between blueprints and c++. Cryengine uses LUA for that matter as well as having FlowGraph for visual scripting. Unreal does support LUA as an experimental feature. Their forum thread on that explains they ENCOURAGE the creation of plugins for different scripting languages meaning they do acknowledge the preference of using code for scripting rather than blueprints but I don't see them supporting C# officially any time soon since people are already working on implementations (that would basically trash whatever work people have achieved so far) and there isn't an urgent/red alert/deadly need for this feature as of now.

                        Anyways, C++ doesn't do bad at all as a scripting language, and before you decide to crucify me for saying that, UE4 uses macros heavily, manages garbage for you, has pretty much any function in blueprints as a simple function in C++, and allows you to expose variables and functions to blueprints very easily. At least to me, after all of this, UE4 C++ is much simpler for scripting gameplay than regular C++ and reminds me a lot on how UnrealScript used to work.

                        Also, you should look into the SkookumScript Plugin. Seems like that is going to do a killer job when it comes to scripting and it has already been production proven.

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                          #57
                          I'm a full time .NET Developer, and it honestly only took me a week to 'catch' up to the C++ workflow. First of all, UE4's C++ is a lot easier than normal C++. Garbage collection is done for you, and it comes with a ton of helper classes and functions , and you don't need to use the C++ std library at all. For me the only real frustrating part - is dealing with header files. I hate those things!

                          Also, Blueprints are not just for artists - they are great for seasoned programmers too. You can test out features of the engine really quickly with blueprints, and make quick changes, which is why I use them for visual aspects of my code as I am tweaking this part of my game constantly. Not only that, there is alot more you can do with blueprints if you understand programming.

                          Lastly, I find it kind of silly all these C# developers coming in here complaining about lack of support for their current favorite language... I mean really if you are a good developer you should be able to pick up most languages pretty quickly (and its not likely you are picking up UE4 for one quick project where the investment wouldn't be worth it). You will spend more time learning and understanding the framework then you will ever syntax. And everyone has a 'favorite' language, why should it even be C#? Why not Javascript? Ruby? Python? All popular languages.

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                            #58
                            I just can't see the point of blueprints, it is exactly the same thing as writing code, with less feature and more confusion. You declare variable, use get/set, call functions/events, pass parameters, where is the difference?
                            if you simply add some "decoration" to your code, like changing font and add some background color you will get the same thing! The only difference is that there is no point in learning it.

                            btw I choosed C# for the benefits I posted earlier, of course javascript/python/java or whatever language you want would be better than blueprints.

                            Nobody had any problem with unity C# and that's a really old version of it, so you can't say that designers are scared of it. Infact they won't move from unity cause they don't know either C++ or blueprints.
                            And you can't say that "you can quickly test with blueprints" cause even the Xamarin plugin for UE4 showed that you can have near-istant build.

                            it is not about "favorite language" but the best language for your goals, and not every languages have same the same features. @Awdogsgo2heaven since you are a .NET developer wouldn't you like to be able to use LINQ and Tasks?
                            Last edited by MaxiHori; 01-16-2015, 06:09 AM.

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                              #59
                              Originally posted by MaxiHori View Post
                              I just can't see the point of blueprints, it is exactly the same thing as writing code, with less feature and more confusion. You declare variable, use get/set, call functions/events, pass parameters, where is the difference?
                              if you simply add some "decoration" to your code, like changing font and add some background color you will get the same thing! The only difference is that there is no point in learning it.

                              btw I choosed C# for the benefits I posted earlier, of course javascript/python/java or whatever language you want would be better than blueprints.

                              Nobody had any problem with unity C# and that's a really old version of it, so you can't say that designers are scared of it. Infact they won't move from unity cause they don't know either C++ or blueprints.
                              And you can't say that "you can quickly test with blueprints" cause even the Xamarin plugin for UE4 showed that you can have near-istant build.

                              it is not about "favorite language" but the best language for your goals, and not every languages have same the same features. @Awdogsgo2heaven since you are a .NET developer wouldn't you like to be able to use LINQ and Tasks?
                              While we're at it, why don't we get rid of the material editor too, it's really no different than writing your material in an HLSL fragment shader, right?

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                                #60
                                Originally posted by Almighty_gir View Post
                                While we're at it, why don't we get rid of the material editor too, it's really no different than writing your material in an HLSL fragment shader, right?
                                if using the material editor is as easy as "writing your material in an HLSL fragment shader" then yes, of course.

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