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    #31
    Certifications can be good but keeping them up to date is problematic.

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      #32
      Dat bump...

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        #33
        Taking certification test only proves that you can answer multiple choice questions about some game development subjects.
        Creating games is what you need to show how to do it. Be it your level design, your editor software for a level, your GDD, this is what it takes account.

        Let's prove that Messi is an excellent football player by answering questions about football tactics or dribbling...NO! Everyone can watch what he does on the field!

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          #34
          Why would going to college for four or more years be worth anything if degrees, certifications and test taking are all worthless? After all, when you graduate college all you get is a piece of paper showing that you paid your money and took all the required testing. I agree that a piece of paper doesn't mean you are going to be really good (skilled and talented) in a particular field, but the piece of paper does prove that you were exposed to the majority of the key areas you need knowledge in. People often view certifications and degrees from the wrong perspective. A certification or a degree is more about exposure and knowledge rather than raw skill and talent. So we already understand that a certification or a degree does not mean you automagically graduate with the necessary skill and talent you need to do well in that job field. We've all met some so-called degreed professionals that still suck at their job. Don't even get me started on some of the worthless lawyers and worthless doctors I have encountered with framed certifications and degrees hanging up in their office.

          A common problem of getting a job is based on the reality of getting past Human Resource departments who are just looking for pre-specified keywords, and who are also looking for paper certifications and paper degrees. I'll use myself as an example. I have over 19 years in web design and have been using Photoshop/Illustrator/Adobe Suite, etc. for over 25 years. I have a killer online portfolio showcasing my design work and have worked for major corporations. And here's the kicker... I don't have a single degree in Graphic Design, Programming or even a certification in Art of any kind. Now, here's the real world problem I face all of the time when applying for jobs (mostly 6 months to 1-year contracts) the HR department often tosses my resume into the trash because they don't see the "Bachelor's Degree" keyword they are looking for. That's just the real world reality of not having a piece of paper showing a certification or a degree. The problem is that you really need both. Yes, you need a killer demo reel or a killer online portfolio to showcase your skill and talent, but you also need the piece of paper (certification or degree) that gets you past the HR buzzword police and to prove you have been exposed to important and key field areas.

          So has not having that piece of paper hurt me over the years? Yes, you better believe it has. In the majority of senior-level positions I have applied for, the same stumbling block happens to me over and over again: a minimum of a "Bachelor's Degree" required. My resume gets thrown-out all the time. So if you really think that a piece of paper (certification and degree) is worthless, then you are simply not living in the reality of the real world. Would having a killer demo reel or portfolio be useful? Hell yes. Would also having a certification in Unreal Engine be useful in the game development industry? Yes, absolutely! Is Unity doing the smart thing by providing certification pathways for its user base? Yes, absolutely! The final answer is... ideally you would want both. One to show you have been exposed to and tested in key areas of field knowledge and the other to show you truly have the skill and the talent for the job.
          Last edited by RazorX; 07-11-2019, 11:14 AM.

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            #35
            I don't think it's worth trying to support that path just because there might be an idiot in the hiring process who doesn't know anything about the requirements for the job and doesn't know that certifications in this area aren't a good measure of skill.

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              #36
              Originally posted by Deathrey View Post
              Who would consider such bureaucracy even remotely useful ? Act of verbal communication as long as 3 to 5 minutes and few glances at previous works/code is more than enough to determine rough level of competence.
              Ok. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who is hiring. There are 500 applications and only a week to parse them all. What are your choices?
              a. Employ the help of others to figure out who gets to go to the next stage of the application process by looking at portfolios first.
              b. Painstakingly read every applications resume and cover letter for details that give you confidence enough to look at that individuals portfolio.
              c. Use an automated system to check for aptitude indicator keywords and phrases which automatically selects people's portfolios for you
              d. Well, you tell me!

              Personally, c is the winner for me, and sure, whether or not the employer actually cares about certification is up to them, but it is a clear and discreet advantage in most cases that can increase the employer's chances of having as many quality interviews as possible.

              ...but the inconvenient reason why the unreal job market might not need certification is simply because there's just not that much demand! It's a far more niche market that unity's, and because of this, the applicant pool is probably going to be less too, meaning that you're usually going to be able to sublimate to an interview of some sort, as long as you word your resume right, of course.

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                #37
                The market for the Unreal developers could be not that niche as you think if one would trust such reports.
                https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/b...-all-time-high

                As an employer, I would definitely ignore any certification ********.
                A quick glance at the artist portfolio tells much more than some paper than everybody could obtain mostly thanks to paying for certification.
                Such paper also tells nothing about the skills of designers or programmers.

                It would be just another thing to appear as "expert" in the eyes of those HR people who know nothing about the job they're recruiting for... So maybe useful for less demanding industries

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by ZebraCalc View Post

                  Ok. Put yourself in the shoes of someone who is hiring. There are 500 applications and only a week to parse them all. What are your choices?
                  a. Employ the help of others to figure out who gets to go to the next stage of the application process by looking at portfolios first.
                  b. Painstakingly read every applications resume and cover letter for details that give you confidence enough to look at that individuals portfolio.
                  c. Use an automated system to check for aptitude indicator keywords and phrases which automatically selects people's portfolios for you
                  d. Well, you tell me!

                  Personally, c is the winner for me, and sure, whether or not the employer actually cares about certification is up to them, but it is a clear and discreet advantage in most cases that can increase the employer's chances of having as many quality interviews as possible.

                  ...but the inconvenient reason why the unreal job market might not need certification is simply because there's just not that much demand! It's a far more niche market that unity's, and because of this, the applicant pool is probably going to be less too, meaning that you're usually going to be able to sublimate to an interview of some sort, as long as you word your resume right, of course.
                  I am a person who often has to sift through applications - certification would be completely useless as far as I'm concerned, because I'm looking for aptitude outside of memorising where features are in a version of the editor that's years old. Game engines move fast, when I look at candidates, I look at their previous work as an indication of their capability. I will often hire candidates with zero Unreal experience, because I presume that anyone capable of working in a rapidly changing environment can adapt and train themselves on the job.

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                    #39
                    Can't help but think the call for certification isn't just about career progression, its also about being starved for quality learning resources at advanced level. Live-Streams are fine. But there's just not enough of them, and many take years to return to topics that ran out of time the first time around. What's left? Diving into source. Fine, but that's not for everyone! I really wish Epic would focus on making advanced tutorials / docs / wikis AND only do basic / intermediate videos afterwards if there's time. Talking here about best practice etc. How many years of tutorials / forum threads / AH posts do you need to trawl through to learn the best techniques...???
                    Last edited by UnrealEnterprise; 02-19-2020, 07:02 AM.

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                      #40
                      And what would a certification program have to do with that?

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by Dudester01 View Post
                        You can say that "the best way to prove your competence to employers is your porffolio", but this is nonsence, do you mean universities should not exist as well?
                        This logic is beyond me.

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                          #42
                          Originally posted by darthviper107 View Post
                          And what would a certification program have to do with that?
                          Training....

                          Before Certs became a scam on an industrial scale, they used to mean focused education & learning.

                          A theoretical example... What if Epic were ever to offer Certified Courses in C++ / Multiplayer / AI etc?
                          It might work, as long as courses offered proven quality of learning, and weren't just about selling Certs.
                          Who cares what the Cert means afterwards, its the quality of training that most devs really want / need.
                          In that sense the Cert is purely symbolic. Its just a fast track to proficiency, versus years of Trial & Error...
                          Last edited by UnrealEnterprise; 02-19-2020, 08:17 PM.

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                            #43
                            ClavosTech
                            Certification courses are only about a short introduction into topics, like 30 hours for the entire course or semester. It only makes sense in case of specific hardware like Cisco routers. You pay for 4 semesters of Cisco to have the opportunity to work with Cisco hardware prior to being employed by a company using such hardware. And then you can spend your entire life by repeating the same actions of administering local networks in the bank office

                            It's impossible to teach anyone scripting, programming, art, level design - on any kind of game implementation during such course. And you don't need to be a part of any course in order to get access to all the basic hardware and software you need.
                            That's why the certification course here wouldn't change a thing

                            There are Unity certifications and these are basically useless. It's only worth it for people who want to make money on selling certification courses to the next people.

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                              #44
                              Moth Doctor
                              Originally posted by Moth Doctor View Post
                              Certification courses are only about a short introduction into topics, like 30 hours for the entire course or semester......... It's impossible to teach anyone scripting programming, art, level design - on any kind of game implementation during such course. And you don't need to be a part of any course in order to get access to all the basic hardware and software you need. That's why the certification course here wouldn't change a thing
                              Disagree! Scripting / Level Design best practice can be taught in that time-frame as long as 3 things hold up: Students have a min competency level, the course materials are solid, and the tutor is quality.... But if not Certs from Epic-designed advanced courses, then what else?

                              What are aspiring devs supposed to do to raise their game.... Learn everything off YouTube??? Leaning on channels like that just leads to fragmented learning and being stuck at the same skill level. You see the same bad habits in BP all the time. Examples: 1 - 2 - 3.

                              Overall though, I don't hear any alternate suggestions from you, just ideas / suggestions being shot down... What is the best method to advance at UE4 to an advanced level in your view.... Feel free to talk about your own progression at game dev if you like...
                              Last edited by UnrealEnterprise; 10-20-2020, 05:16 PM.

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                                #45
                                Originally posted by Dudester01 View Post

                                Ask Unity why they made such a "stupid" move. And why they are more successful than Epics
                                Or why universities, colleges, .net certification(coding), exists in the first place. Just learn everything yourself mate, and then just look at the glance, that's enough.

                                >Who would consider such bureaucracy even remotely useful ?
                                Are you "cool" teenage anarachist or what? Every serious company would and does. There is a good reason WHY colleges, unis exist, and a lot of SERIOUS software have CERTIFICATION. Unity as a direct competitor does not think it is "not useful". Same as Microsoft with their certification courses, CISCO, and every **** software that needs you to be a serious, responsible professional. Wake up, grow up.

                                >Act of verbal communication as long as 3 to 5 minutes
                                Best HR ever. I think we need to revise our education system for creating a next level hr-s like you. Or maybe we should start a certification course based on an 3-5 minutes interview with you? Do you even remotely understand a process of any kind of certification and what it means? It checks all aspect of an entity you are studying, and best practice would be looking if a person have already passed all professional tests, rather than your "3-5 mins"
                                As a teacher, my experience has been that certifications are a cash-grab by companies pandering to the "educational" market. The bottom line (<--- see definition) is money. That's why certifications are offered; those companies make money for offering them, and hype them up by saying "Do want to land that next big job? Get this piece of paper that tells everyone how good you are at your job." There is no other real-world reason. A portfolio is far more useful and does the same thing.

                                You want the proof? We are REQUIRED to certify X amount of students each year -- why? Because it makes the school money. Teachers, classrooms, and schools get kickbacks for certifying. What angers me the most about this is not the certs themselves. I'm all for showcasing your skills by any means but the problem is pushing certs on students diminishes their education. That's not a joke or an exaggeration. We have to tailor our lessons to conform with the certification tests. We already have the FCATs the MCATs the SATs the ACTs the EOCs and now CERTs. We're not teaching them skills for living, we're teaching them skills for testing. That's not practical. But hey, I only work here.

                                There are a few instances where certifications align with state standards and become a natural part of the learning process. But that is the exception, not the norm.

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