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  • replied
    Dedicated server is an option, and not a requirement to create networked games. The closest you can get to P2P is the basic network model unreal implements, called Listen server, where the hosting client will be the server. This is very well documented, and you should read the docs. As for the security it is very important to stick to the server authorative model, otherwise the gameplay will literally be destroyed by the cheaters.

    The default client -> server -> all clients model is the prefered model on networked gameplay and it should never be changed. But you can change the way the engine works, and you can implement whatever model would you like to use. It is only possible thru c++ and by using coding you will have the better understanding of the consequences when trying to implement any direct client-to-client data replication, at which point you will likely dismiss this model, therefore it really is not required to add this feature to the engine, so to avoid any misunderstanding by the lack of knowledge on the game designer's part. Just imagine the situation where an artist creates a game that is client authorative, and upon realization of the mistake he/she have to redesign the entire game. This would be disasteorus, and a very possible scenario to happen in the vast majority of the cases.

    It really is not that big of a deal to put one or two extra nodes to your blueprints graph by following the server authorative model, and it makes it better to understand what is actually happening, not to mention the fact that the blueprint's space is endless and you can collapse sub-graphs, so you can put your nodes wherever you just want, doesnt necessarily have to be in the middle of your graph.
    Last edited by Konflict; 05-23-2017, 01:35 PM.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by TheJamsh View Post
    You can still make and sell online games in Unreal without paying for Dedicated Servers.

    Unless the fundamental networking layer of the engine changes (which it likely won't), clients will never be able to talk to other clients without going via the server. If you want real Peer-To-Peer networking, you'll have to write it yourself or find some other API (there are a lot out there).
    By saying without paying, you mean self-hosting or Steam, right? Indeed, the way UE4 replicates now does not support any peer to peer at the moment unless I am missing out something. Since you know some API out there, would you care to share in case some of us never know what you have known there?

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  • replied
    You can still make and sell online games in Unreal without paying for Dedicated Servers.

    Unless the fundamental networking layer of the engine changes (which it likely won't), clients will never be able to talk to other clients without going via the server. If you want real Peer-To-Peer networking, you'll have to write it yourself or find some other API (there are a lot out there).
    Last edited by TheJamsh; 05-23-2017, 12:07 PM.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Moddingear View Post
    We need more than just Server -> All; Server -> Owning Client and Owning Client ->Server.
    I would like to be able to do Client -> All, Client -> Server and Client -> Owning Client for my game, and I can't because of these limitations.
    I know this can induce some cheat, but if it's reverified by the server afterwards, I don't think so.

    I totally want this feature as well. Even though whatever [MENTION=155]TheJamsh[/MENTION] said, but he does not realise that not everyone's game care about security. Not everyone has the budget to pay for dedicated server or whatever hosting needs. There are several AAA title games still using P2P these days, like Destiny 2, Dark Soul 3, For Honor and so forth.
    Epic, please.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by Syed View Post
    Honestly, I think an engine should have features that cater for 90% of users requirement, but not 100%. The remaining 10% should be done by the users themselves, because replication as what it is is good enough for most people.
    Yeah, but if it's as simple as removing a restriction for one kind of replication, I don't see why we would have to go through so much hassles.

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  • replied
    Honestly, I think an engine should have features that cater for 90% of users requirement, but not 100%. The remaining 10% should be done by the users themselves, because replication as what it is is good enough for most people.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by TheJamsh View Post
    Yeah but that's the problem - if the Client can call RPC's on objects it doesn't "own", that opens up the possibility of cheating all too easily. They could start calling RPC's on other players pawns for example, asking them to drop all their weapons or suchlike (just an example). The Golden Rule is that if you have an online game, someone will try to hack it - no matter how unpopular or popular it may be. Look at the issues faced by The Division when it launched, a very promising AAA title ultimately ruined by client-authoritative networking and silly choices.

    If Epic ever were to implement something like this (spoiler alert: they probably won't), their system would more than likely follow the path of least resistance, which means still routing an RPC via the Server and needing some kind of replicated reference to the object.

    IMO, network programming in UE4 is easier in C++ than Blueprint. BP tends to get way too messy for things like this.
    Then again, it could depend on which type of replication you choose. A Client to Server could be as secure as an Owner to Server.
    Also, on the case of The Division, there was no server checks to allow them to use less resources. Unreal has checks, and runs the same code on server.

    One solution could be to make it so that multiple players can own a same actor. That could be nice.

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  • replied
    Yeah but that's the problem - if the Client can call RPC's on objects it doesn't "own", that opens up the possibility of cheating all too easily. They could start calling RPC's on other players pawns for example, asking them to drop all their weapons or suchlike (just an example). The Golden Rule is that if you have an online game, someone will try to hack it - no matter how unpopular or popular it may be. Look at the issues faced by The Division when it launched, a very promising AAA title ultimately ruined by client-authoritative networking and silly choices.

    If Epic ever were to implement something like this (spoiler alert: they probably won't), their system would more than likely follow the path of least resistance, which means still routing an RPC via the Server and needing some kind of replicated reference to the object.

    IMO, network programming in UE4 is easier in C++ than Blueprint. BP tends to get way too messy for things like this.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by TheJamsh View Post
    Unreal is Server-Authoritative not just because of it's shooter game heritage but also because it's the safest way to do online networking. P2P sucks for games anyway, it's not really done anymore.

    You can do this now by routing an RPC to the Server, then telling it which client to send said RPC too (by passing a PlayerState for that client so the Server knows where to send it) - but you will still have to call that Server RPC in the local players Player Controller, Player State or Pawn.

    Clients don't know about other Clients, at all. As far as a Client is concerned, the only other 'player' is the Server. The Objects that represent other Clients are just empty shells as far as it's concerned. Basicaly like a Car with noone behind the wheel.
    The problem is that with that system, I have to forward everything through the player in order to contact the server for it to update the common actor that everyone wants to access. It could be simplified by allowing anyone to contact directly the server, regardless of if it's the owner or not.

    Here's a little graph of what I mean.
    Click image for larger version

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  • replied
    Unreal is Server-Authoritative not just because of it's shooter game heritage but also because it's the safest way to do online networking. P2P sucks for games anyway, it's not really done anymore.

    You can do this now by routing an RPC to the Server, then telling it which client to send said RPC too (by passing a PlayerState for that client so the Server knows where to send it) - but you will still have to call that Server RPC in the local players Player Controller, Player State or Pawn.

    Clients don't know about other Clients, at all. As far as a Client is concerned, the only other 'player' is the Server. The Objects that represent other Clients are just empty shells as far as it's concerned. Basicaly like a Car with noone behind the wheel.

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  • replied
    Originally posted by BrUnO XaVIeR View Post
    The reason is Epic made this network layer for shooter multiplayer games xD
    Then I hope they can step it up.

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  • replied
    The reason is Epic made this network layer for shooter multiplayer games xD

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  • replied
    Originally posted by BrUnO XaVIeR View Post
    You can solve some of your needs with RPCs and OnRep_ functions; Client to Server then Server to All.
    But Client to client would be a mess, I think you'd have to make your own Socket stuff...
    Client to server requires to be the owner of the object for whatever reason.

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  • replied
    You can solve some of your needs with RPCs and OnRep_ functions; Client to Server then Server to All.
    But Client to client would be a mess, I think you'd have to make your own Socket stuff...

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  • replied
    Originally posted by TheJamsh View Post
    Clients can't talk to each other directly, that would require P2P networking which Unreal doesn't support in any form (and it's never going to).

    As a Client, you can still ask the Server to do things to other Clients if you want to - but you have to use the PlayerState as a reference for that client.
    Client-to-client connections could work by being routed by the server : Client ->All = Client -> Server -> All; Client -> Owning Client = Client -> Server -> Owning Client.
    What I want to do is to be able to access and send data to all client from any client on one blueprint.
    Because right now the only ones who can send data are the Owning Client and the Server.

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