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    Originally posted by Hevedy View Post
    The new Geo Tools added finally after years waiting oh yeah nice!
    I'm just curious, I've heard this demand many times from some here. How does a feature like this help you with your tasks in Unreal vs just taking the proper time in a 3d app which would be able to model/unwrap faster and more efficiently and later just import it. ( judging from the features shown, it looks like a very simplistic version of a box modeling tool for static meshes where you would be able to do simple poles, walls, tables etc.) modeling these and importing them from any 3d app should be a breeze already, and make sure all the assets no matter how small in the game are properly tracked and saved outside the engine like they usually should be specially when working with a team or in a production environment. So i'm just more curious to figure out the usage of such a feature in engine from a practical point of view.

    Comment


      Originally posted by William K View Post
      I'm just curious, I've heard this demand many times from some here. How does a feature like this help you with your tasks in Unreal vs just taking the proper time in a 3d app which would be able to model/unwrap faster and more efficiently and later just import it. ( judging from the features shown, it looks like a very simplistic version of a box modeling tool for static meshes where you would be able to do simple poles, walls, tables etc.) modeling these and importing them from any 3d app should be a breeze already, and make sure all the assets no matter how small in the game are properly tracked and saved outside the engine like they usually should be specially when working with a team or in a production environment. So i'm just more curious to figure out the usage of such a feature in engine from a practical point of view.
      Well this come from the old school engines idea, there some games keep using this way, right now the tools that Epic added have a pretty slow workflow, the idea is:

      You get auto UV, auto lightmap uv and auto colisions in realtime each time you edit the meshes, that is a secondary part the main use of this is get a total control of the sizes in the maps and preview and edit in editor without need to reimport or replace something in the map, allow you do edit any wall at any time and edit it and control sizes and collisions in a perfect way, really useful in games where you need control of sizes and space, that is the main feature that is made for: Place a cube in the word drag without select the faces and make a wall, press space copy that wall and you can make a new wall and all get auto collision, uv and uv lightmap

      And define the whole world layout, later you place the meshes is like some kind of system where you can drag in 3D to design the map and later you can use the base for walls and grounds and that kind of things.

      Plus some tools includes too a terrain system you can make tunnels etc or no plane walls with auto collisions what is way better than need todo all of that in a external editor without a direct control in sizes as you can get in realtime.

      Triggers and collisions are build over this system.
      Last edited by Hevedy; 03-02-2017, 11:35 AM.
      Hevedy - Instance Tools: https://hevedy.itch.io/hevedyinstances
      Hevedy - Image Tools: https://hevedy.itch.io/imagetools

      Comment


        Originally posted by William K View Post
        I'm just curious, I've heard this demand many times from some here. How does a feature like this help you with your tasks in Unreal vs just taking the proper time in a 3d app which would be able to model/unwrap faster and more efficiently and later just import it. ( judging from the features shown, it looks like a very simplistic version of a box modeling tool for static meshes where you would be able to do simple poles, walls, tables etc.) modeling these and importing them from any 3d app should be a breeze already, and make sure all the assets no matter how small in the game are properly tracked and saved outside the engine like they usually should be specially when working with a team or in a production environment. So i'm just more curious to figure out the usage of such a feature in engine from a practical point of view.
        Maybe you're looking at things from advanced product stage and team work.
        But for early projects / prototyping for solo Indies esp, this is a huge addition..
        So lots of reasons really, but some that come to mind right now in no order:

        1. Prototyping, fast iteration, relatively minor mesh tweaks.
        2. Game engine lighting (not secondary source like Maya).
        3. 3rd Party surrounding meshes for scaling / comparison.
        4. In-game reference meshes for working on new sections.
        5. Generally faster workflow independent from any 3d app.
        6. Not having all source meshes already in fav 3D app etc.
        7. UE4's Simulate Editor function in conjunction with all this.

        Comment


          Thanks for the explanation.

          I guess it's a matter of what different people are used to.

          In our case coming from a traditional animation background, we tend to do everything even a prototype in the main 3d app and measure everything there in terms of scale, layout, etc.. then move to stage 2 (in engine) rough lighting lookdev, later to assembly and so on.

          I guess building even a wall in unreal will take us more time because we still have to compare that wall with our assets and make sure that those match up to scale etc... We would worry about UV and collision much later on.

          Also it would be a big no for us to edit or touch up any imported asset on a model level in the engine as this would create conflict with the original asset shared outside the engine.

          I guess I saw the presentation with someone editing this sort with VR and that just further added to the confusion, I've said it before it's simply alien to us to have an artist using VR editing this way in a production environment, it's not only tremendously slow/not intuitive, but will also burn our eyes 10 mins in, sitting in front of a monitor all day is bad enough : ).

          A VR game I may understand but actual work is simply strange.

          Anyway thanks for the replies.

          Comment


            I wondered about this myself when first getting to know ue4. It seems like such an obvious thing to attract people interested in creating stuff themselves and maybe progressing to more advanced development.

            Epic has already put out a bunch of content in the form of examples but why isn't there a well organised full set of asset packs with a few different themes?

            It should be reasonably easy to create a great environment out of the box with content packs and a ready made template. Sure you can buy packs but ignoring the cost its a mixed bag. Think about why modding became so popular. Gamers have a ready made game full of assets to play around with and change. Making an outdoor environment for example should be more like cryengine with a few good content packs and better tools and defaults. There's a lot of messing about to get something good going right now.

            At the end of the day i get that epic is mainly engine and dev focused rather than casual user but ue4 could be so much better and it wouldn't take much.
            Last edited by Magneto; 03-14-2017, 12:52 PM.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Magneto View Post
              I wondered about this myself when first getting to know ue4. It seems like such an obvious thing to attract people interested in creating stuff themselves and maybe progressing to more advanced development.

              Epic has already put out a bunch of content in the form of examples but why isn't there a well organised full set of asset packs with a few different themes?

              It should be reasonably easy to create a great environment out of the box with content packs and a ready made template. Sure you can buy packs but ignoring the cost its a mixed bag. Think about why modding became so popular. Gamers have a ready made game full of assets to play around with and change. Making an outdoor environment for example should be more like cryengine with a few good content packs and better tools and defaults. There's a lot of messing about to get something good going right now.

              At the end of the day i get that epic is mainly engine and dev focused rather than casual user but ue4 could be so much better and it wouldn't take much.
              If you mean content examples for learning purposes then maybe yes and no, because even the best content example can teach you only so much from the basics the rest is just a lot of self learning and hard work. I say it again I would rather have more documentation and tutorials on advanced topics than just packs. You would be surprised how much time you waste on simple pros and cons of what method to use where and how and why during a workflow for the basics when it comes to Unreal, we spent months figuring out some things the hard way when it would've taken a few hours/days if things were better documented in some of those areas.

              If you are speaking of modding and packs for game usage purposes to populate your game or map with them, then I don't see how this is any different than asset flipping. Why waste time when your game will look just like any other game that is going to use the same packages all over. From a game development point of view it is a waste of time as any success seeking or serious game development will require to have their own original assets made down to modifying grass and trees (considering grass and trees are the easiest asset flipped assets to use in an environment that goes least noticed) then again the amount of generic and uninteresting trees and vegetation i've seen in games these days is staggering, because they mostly use the same packages with almost Zero modifications or molding to them. Of course that also has to do with composition and lighting but that's another story, if they are not bothering with phase one than they wont be bothering with phase two to begin with.

              Epic's Staff time is little, and in that little time i'd much rather see them focus on the things that truly matter in every day situations using the engine rather than making it a colorful package for all, and i'm speaking as a beginner in the engine (not a beginner in the industry), I don't want Epic to waste their time giving me new shiny buttons or packs or other fancy useless tools such as (editor VR to build my landscapes) I want them to give me a monochromatic UI with bare bones ugly text but one that is less buggy and well documented with solid features that will help the game creation process from a small team point of view.

              Comment


                Originally posted by William K View Post
                If you mean content examples for learning purposes...
                I was thinking of it mainly from a new user or casual creator point of view. We have a starter pack and various examples but these are basic and unorganized. Something more substantial like a realistic theme content pack which could be used to create a full landscape with lots of materials, foliage, building pieces, roads etc. Plus more fully featured templates with enough in there to get basic ai and interaction going could go a long way. UE4 is like half way there already.

                Comment


                  building even a wall in unreal will take us more time because we still have to compare that wall with our assets and make sure that those match up to scale etc
                  In Unreal, you know that the character is just under 200 units, so a "realistic-ish" indoors will use 300 unit tall walls, and a "game-ish" indoors will use 400 unit tall walls.
                  It's basically built to make the standard gameplay shortcuts that players understand the easy/default thing.

                  Regarding geometry tools in UE4, the old-school BSP tools have worked all the time, and I find them to not be as bad as some people say. (Not best in class, for sure, but totally usable.)
                  There are three markets for in-engine geometry tools:

                  1) Indies that don't necessarily have the budget for an external 3D tool at all. (The might buy characters from the marketplace, but you can't buy your levels)

                  2) Prototypers who are looking for gameplay information. How wide should a moat be for standing jump, running jump, or adrenaline boosted jump? How high should a shelf be for the pull-up climb? How thick do platforms need to be to reliably block all kinds of moving geometry?

                  3) Level designers who need non-visual or auxiliary assets. A trigger zone that roughly matches the irregular shape of a podium. A pile of crates seen on a dock in the distance that the player will never get to. Exact collision geometry for a ramp that launches cars across a canyon.

                  My guess is that most people who are really looking forward to high-quality in-editor geometry tools are in category 1).

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Magneto View Post
                    I was thinking of it mainly from a new user or casual creator point of view. We have a starter pack and various examples but these are basic and unorganized. Something more substantial like a realistic theme content pack which could be used to create a full landscape with lots of materials, foliage, building pieces, roads etc. Plus more fully featured templates with enough in there to get basic ai and interaction going could go a long way. UE4 is like half way there already.
                    I understand what you wish to have, unfortunately like i said what you may be asking for is a playground to put given assets inside an editor and see what sticks.

                    - These assets and their creation take time to make if its going to be free from Epic's part, time that could be spent elsewhere and they already have given some of these from their kite demos, and more assets may not be available for free from them such as those in Paragon because that's their property for exclusive in house use, maybe when they do something better in the far future they will make the old assets available.

                    - More realistic assets exist in form of scans, these cost money just like anything else worthy of an investment and even these get modified for any serious game dev.

                    - If you wish to be serious in seeing UE develop further than IMHO it would be unwise to ask the staff for such content as it would serve no other purpose but to please modders or just hobbyist (if Epic was big enough to handle all then maybe, but they are not at the moment) and would directly backfire on devs who are actually investing their time and money trusting the engine for the bread and butter they may receive at the end of the day, as time should be spent elsewhere that matters to the features they request from Epic. The engine has so many problems than need attention as priority.

                    This is why I am against trying to cater the engine for all. Again i'm speaking this as a relative beginner in the engine. I don't want them to spoon feed me with examples. Just give me docs and tutorials. Leave the creation to us artists and if you are developer find a partner who will contribute to art if you are half serious, otherwise its just play, nothing wrong with it but the reality is that the majority who just want to tinker with the engine and ask for features they believe will make their play more fun will definitely hurt the devs working on a title.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by jwatte View Post
                      In Unreal, you know that the character is just under 200 units, so a "realistic-ish" indoors will use 300 unit tall walls, and a "game-ish" indoors wil...).
                      Hi jwatte,

                      I guess it's a workflow thing,

                      We are an indie small team, I speak from that end. Maybe we are used to working differently.

                      1 UE unit is 1 cm I believe so matching up walls is straight forward for us outside engine, they will come in as expected. We almost never buy assets and make our own, which is why we tend to focus and plan mostly outside engine before bringing the assembly in, even during prototyping.

                      I think Blender is a great 3d tool for indies who are on a budget. No reason why they can't use it.

                      Maybe no harm to have extra BSP tools in engine depending on the amount of demand for it, this all depends on Epic.

                      Good luck.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by William K View Post
                        I understand what you wish to have, unfortunately like i said what you may be asking for is a playground to put given assets inside an editor and see what sticks.
                        I get what your saying and agree epic should be mostly focusing on engine improvements and bugfixes but they have been trying to open the engine up to wider uses than purely game dev for sometime now. Perhaps they could put some of the money that goes toward dev grants and use it for a few community content packs. All im talking here is enough assets similar to the kite demo that are properly organised and cover most real world use cases. Like a landscape and foliage pack, city pack, road and vehicle pack etc?

                        Comment


                          serve no other purpose but to please modders or just hobbyist
                          The release of UE4 in the way they did a few years ago, is clearly a way to try to eat their way down from AAA into indie development, as a pre-emptive strike against Unity trying to eat its way up from indie into AAA development.
                          If hobbyists, modders, and indies are important to Epic from a strategic point of view, then in-engine editing tools are important to them for the same reason.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by jwatte View Post
                            The release of UE4 in the way they did a few years ago, is clearly a way to try to eat their way down from AAA into indie development, as a pre-emptive strike against Unity trying to eat its way up from indie into AAA development.
                            If hobbyists, modders, and indies are important to Epic from a strategic point of view, then in-engine editing tools are important to them for the same reason.
                            That's all fine and I wish in a perfect world everyone can be happy. It's important to note that there is a clear difference between hobbyist/modders vs devs investing/risking their time and money and life into making a product. Needless to say big responsibilities, investors, studio to keep floating. I'm saying if Epic had to choose the choice is obvious to me.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Magneto View Post
                              I get what your saying and agree epic should be mostly focusing on engine improvements and bugfixes but they have been trying to open the engine up to wider uses than purely game dev for sometime now. Perhaps they could put some of the money that goes toward dev grants and use it for a few community content packs. All im talking here is enough assets similar to the kite demo that are properly organised and cover most real world use cases. Like a landscape and foliage pack, city pack, road and vehicle pack etc?
                              Sure if they provide dev grant for someone else to put something together then why not.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by TorQueMoD View Post
                                The ability to adjust screen resolution and other graphics options such as AA, AO, Bloom, Vsync, etc. You know, the core settings you get with pretty much every game ever made. If you're making a console game, then you should be able to check of a bool that only shows the relevant settings for your target platform. The ability to turn rendering functionality on and off such as shadows. The ability to adjust culling distances for any of the systems that are used by almost everyone - Foliage, cascaded shadows etc. The ability to adjust the volume for different sounds (possibly through a simple tagging system). We have the ability to adjust all of this from within the Editor, but there's no easy way to expose these options to the player in order to allow them to adjust the settings to suit their needs
                                Most of this stuff is available. It's really easy to script video settings or audio settings.
                                Although I agree it takes time to learn new UI system. Especially that in vanilla UMG you need to script every input (mouse, keyboard/gamepad) for every interactive element independently. And this issue isn't UE4 specific. Current UI system in Unity has similar issues
                                Making video settings is quick job, but learning to quickly set up UI isn't that quick. That's why providing just menu systems isn't that important - most of the games still needs in-game UI. And those interfaces are usually dynamic so they require another approach to scripting. Solutions provided by "quick menu systems" can't be easily adjusted for that

                                I'm fairly advanced on my "composite UI workflow" which lets you forget about "reinventing wheel" in UI. Well, in most cases, not all of them. Supporting reusable styles, automatic input/navigation handling (works with styles i.e. hovered button changes visual style to Hovered style defined by you), panel management and few more features.
                                I'm planning to release on marketplace... when it will be really easy to use.
                                Last edited by Moth Doctor; 03-15-2017, 12:27 PM.

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