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Moving forward with all the upcoming releases, it is unfortunate not to see MSAA improvements.

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    Moving forward with all the upcoming releases, it is unfortunate not to see MSAA improvements.

    It seems to me MSAA and forward have been neglected a little? Many of us use forward and MSAA combo in our projects. Sadly we still don't have AA on depth buffer when using MSAA and motion blur also messes up.

    The D-Buffer issue is a big deal and a significant one. I hope Epic plans a fix or a workaround for it!

    What do you guys think?

    #2
    Originally posted by William K View Post
    Many of us use forward and MSAA combo in our projects.
    What do you guys think?
    I guess, that part there is the problem, since RTX is the next big thing, and every company seems to push into that direction. And until now, MSAA does not work with RTX, And RTX does not work with forward (would be nice to get a combination, since several effects require forward, and are not working in deferred).

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      #3
      Originally posted by Suthriel View Post

      I guess, that part there is the problem, since RTX is the next big thing, and every company seems to push into that direction. And until now, MSAA does not work with RTX, And RTX does not work with forward (would be nice to get a combination, since several effects require forward, and are not working in deferred).
      By RTX I assume you mean raytracing and not the cards . Personally I still think Raytracing is far from being full on production ready at the moment or bargain enough to let go of other ways of working.

      At best it does reflections here and there at a performance cost maybe some AO for more performance cost. But these are not reasons enough to abandon forward sadly not to mention the consumer market which still lack raytracing cards.

      It is sad to see how quickly other more production friendly and flexible tools are neglected because of "the next big thing". I hope they give us a fully functional MSAA or a Forward+ that could solve some of these AA issues. TAA is still very blurry and unusable in many types of games.

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        #4
        I can understand it to be honest. MSAA is better image quality at the cost of performance, while future solutions such as DLSS 2.0 are a matter of better image quality and better performance at the same time, so MSAA doesn't make that much sense going forward.

        As for TAA blurriness, I found that it can be more than well compensated by sharpening. Maybe not on the same level as MSAA but still more than enough to ship a triple A game with. It makes me all the more confused that TAA sharpening is still not exposed as a first class option, but remains an obscure console variable.

        Just use r.Tonemapper.Sharpen and find the right value which balances the sharpness of TAA and introduction of aliasing. I personally have very hard time telling TAA with r.Tonemapper.Sharpen at 2 from MSAA on 2560x1440 monitor.
        https://www.artstation.com/artist/rawalanche

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          #5
          Originally posted by Rawalanche View Post
          I can understand it to be honest. MSAA is better image quality at the cost of performance, while future solutions such as DLSS 2.0 are a matter of better image quality and better performance at the same time, so MSAA doesn't make that much sense going forward.

          As for TAA blurriness, I found that it can be more than well compensated by sharpening. Maybe not on the same level as MSAA but still more than enough to ship a triple A game with. It makes me all the more confused that TAA sharpening is still not exposed as a first class option, but remains an obscure console variable.

          Just use r.Tonemapper.Sharpen and find the right value which balances the sharpness of TAA and introduction of aliasing. I personally have very hard time telling TAA with r.Tonemapper.Sharpen at 2 from MSAA on 2560x1440 monitor.
          Thanks for pitching in here as well.

          Isn't DLSS 2.0 only limited to working on RTX cards? Also I heard that they could be expensive in terms of performance. It's also not yet available in UE4 last I checked.

          Sadly TAA has other issues other than blurriness, smearing of fast moving small objects on screen (think strategy game), particle detail and trails disappearing and fading (even with TAA compensation enabled), Texture blurring, over all muddying of image with sharpening filter + Smearing issues more apparent with this filter.

          There's always a compromise I suppose, MSAA seems to perform pretty well so long as the values aren't extreme and using up sampling screen percentage a bit with low MSAA could also help the image. Sadly the few issues I mentioned above still create those shortcomings to watch out for.

          Comment


            #6
            Hi,

            Isn't DLSS 2.0 only limited to working on RTX cards?
            Since it is stated to run on the tensor cores of the GPU, it is limited to RTX 20 series and upwards.

            Also I heard that they could be expensive in terms of performance.
            Generally speaking, the tensor cores are not used for anything else besides doing tensor operations and are dedicated hardware to speed up training and evaluating of neural networks. So they are not used in unreals rendering pipeline.

            MSAA is used to remove aliasing of an image, so for example UE would render the image at 1080p, and MSAA would only remove aliasing, but again output 1080p.

            DLSS is super resolution. That means UE still renders at 1080p, but the image you get as result after the neural network will be higher resolution (4k) and without aliasing since the reference images to train the network were at 16k.

            Therefore it seems to be better to compare performance between 4k with MSAA and 1080p with DLSS, since both will then output 4k. Of course there is also the quality of the image you get when using DLSS compared to directly render 4k with MSAA...
            Last edited by chrudimer; 09-19-2020, 11:26 AM.

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              #7
              Does enabling MSAA somehow interfere with deferred rendering since it requires the forward renderer?

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                #8
                Since it is stated to run on the tensor cores of the GPU, it is limited to RTX 20 series and upwards
                I suppose that greatly limits things for a game which is also expected to run nicely on non RTX cards.

                DLSS is super resolution. That means UE still renders at 1080p, but the image you get as result after the neural network will be higher resolution (4k) and without aliasing since the reference images to train the network were at 16k.
                So I guess this is like "Up-scaling" or faking 4K, it is using neural network to approximate higher resolutions, I wonder how well it works on very fast moving small objects, if it is artifact prone.
                Originally posted by presto423 View Post
                Does enabling MSAA somehow interfere with deferred rendering since it requires the forward renderer?
                Since you can't have MSAA with deferred I suppose it wont interfere in anything deffered, but if you mean if it interferes with Deferred elements of the Forward+ Renderer then so far I haven't come across any such issues other than the ones Forward can't handle such as the examples I gave above, Decals, D-Buffer, Motion blur artifacting. Also you can't enable MSAA when using Deferred anyway but you can choose to have TAA with forward.



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                  #9
                  It is impossible to efficiently achieve feature parity between forward and deferred shading, therefore it makes perfect sense former has not received any love, considering that demand for games with seamless visual experience is abysmally low these days.

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Deathrey View Post
                    considering that demand for games with seamless visual experience is abysmally low these days.
                    What do you mean by that?

                    Regarding Forward yes its sad to see this, but how much of a fuss is it from an engineering perspective to make D-Buffer work correctly with MSAA in Forward? If they could fix just that feature I think it will be enough for now.

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                      #11


                      making it work on decals would be great and all, but it doesn't even work correctly on regular geometry right now.

                      plz fix epic
                      Last edited by Envieous; 09-19-2020, 02:50 PM.
                      Anime Shading Model - Twitter

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                        #12
                        making it work on decals would be great and all, but it doesn't even work correctly on regular geometry right now.
                        Isn't the Decal issue and the D-Buffer issue the same problem? Decal use D-Buffer and so MSAA is not working on it. I second the cry for help from Epic on this.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by William K View Post

                          What do you mean by that?
                          There is strong general preference for good visuals rather than seamless visuals. Seamless, in the context, is either delivering the effect within a single frame, or not doing it at all, rather than trying to fit it in by performing it in lower resolution, spatially or temporally.

                          Originally posted by William K View Post
                          Regarding Forward yes its sad to see this, but how much of a fuss is it from an engineering perspective to make D-Buffer work correctly with MSAA in Forward? If they could fix just that feature I think it will be enough for now.
                          D-Buffer is a thing bound to solve a very particular issue and really has no place in MSAAed forward pipeline, so there would be nothing to solve here.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Deathrey View Post

                            D-Buffer is a thing bound to solve a very particular issue and really has no place in MSAAed forward pipeline, so there would be nothing to solve here.
                            Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are trying to say, there is clearly an issue with MSAA and D-buffer related effects, MSAA doesn't apply on them and they result in jaggy edges. For instance Decals and materials that use D-buffer to create such effects suffer from this. Is this not something solvable? Another example would be when you create a simple fog sheet with depth fade in the material with forward renderer, everything rendering on top or beneath this fog sheet will result in having no MSAA and appear jaggy.

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