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4.15 tonemapper - is it possible to simulate old effects?

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    #31
    For my purpose console command r.TonemapperFilm 0 helps a lot and emissive materials looks nearly like before. I also pumped up intensity of emissive color.

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      #32
      Originally posted by MakeBeliever View Post
      For my purpose console command r.TonemapperFilm 0 helps a lot and emissive materials looks nearly like before. I also pumped up intensity of emissive color.
      Yes, it's already written in the first post. However it does not sound promising if it gets removed in future versions.

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        #33
        Hi Mitch,

        Yes UE4 can be a PBR system but as we've seen you can make very unrealistic materials by just using constants and cranking up the values which go into the rendering system and create all sorts of results - some of them are creatively pleasing !

        Yes UE4's SSR should be dealing with the linear colour/pre tonemapping so all mathematics are done in the correct space = the particles are very bright blue and so the dull reflective floor is reflecting something like 4% of that emissive colour = dull blue.

        After all these correct lighting/surface mathematics (ideally based on PBR material inputs) the tonemapper will bend all of that into our display space. This is another point where artistry can come in and one can change white balance, gammas, black/white points and parameters to clip/not clip brights etc etc.

        Actually as Kalle-H points out the billboard to the left of my example frame is a good case of all of this behaving correctly - the SDR image on the left's billboard would measure full white (255,255,255) but the dull side walk is reflecting a smaller percentage of that which fits into the dynamic range of the image and shows the true colour (dielectrics won't tint the reflection) but just to be sure you can see the stopped down image on the right to see the real colour of the billboard which confirms the situation. Again, all of this would look MUCH more correct if we were to look at the frame in HDR on and HDR capable display and the tonemapper wouldn't be bending things as much.

        All I'm getting at is UE4 is making strides to be more and more reliable and work on the scientific basis of light/energy. It's something I dived into with the Maxwell Renderer 10 years ago and it was very controversial at the time because we were still used to strapping our own shaders/materials together by hand and most of the time not even with any respect for energy conservation (materials could reflect MORE light than they receive!)

        Done well this will make realtime experiences more believable as if metals really behaved like metals, not shiny plastics or glass looked like glass and not transparent plastic. You'll change from indoor to outdoor and you'll really feel the difference in the amount of light - and not just by hacking at the bloom parameters - but because your new HDR monitor will actually make your eye muscles close your iris down ! Wow !

        Still, we need to have complete control over this in the cases where we don't want photo-realism.

        Matt Hermans

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          #34
          I've just comared the element demo 4.11 and 4.15:

          4.15:
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          4.11 :
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          While I think the lava could be faked to a very bright lava (because even this type of lava exists) I still prefer the "cooler" lava of 4.11. If your goal would be dark orange lava you just failed your job in 4.15. And that said there is not only bright white lava but even deep orange lava like in 4.11 and almost pure red lava as well. While this was possible whit ease < 4.15 it seems you can only get very very hot and bright lava in 4.15 now. And everything that is not lava (neon signs, lasers, magic bolts, ...) is doomed. I think this is a step backward and not forwards. It's not more realistic but forced and limited realistic and less unreal ...

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            #35
            Originally posted by Neutronux View Post
            I've just comared the element demo 4.11 and 4.15:

            .
            While its not too bad a look, it also feels slightly off.
            Id settle for an in-between

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              #36
              Originally posted by Luos View Post
              While its not too bad a look, it also feels slightly off.
              Id settle for an in-between
              You could easy get an in-between (or even more pure red as it really exists in nature) < 4.15 because all those colors belonged to you. In 4.15 all those colors are eaten by evil tonemapper ... and just turns white extreme quick.

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                #37
                Hi Neutronux,

                Lava is a perfect example for my case actually as Lava fits a scientific phenomena called Black Body Radiation which has an absolute mapping between Temperature in Kelvin to RGB.

                I've simulated Lava (in VFX) at realistic Kelvin temperatures so the values can be mapped directly through a Black Body node and return a RGB colour that goes into the Tone Mapper.

                My guess is the UE4 lava was artistically created to look 'right' but isn't sitting in physically correct units. 4.15 would probably make this easier.

                Real units are just a much more reliable platform to work in. Watts, f-stops, IOR, kilogram, gravity and tight PBR materials make life easier as you can pick up scientific journals (even going back decades) which can explain the interaction between them all - regardless of which software one uses.

                After this point it's all about how you creatively 'expose' the image i.e Instagram vs RAW

                Matt Hermans

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by Renbry View Post
                  but isn't sitting in physically correct units
                  But my material does not have a temperature node. It could glow because it's a hot black body or it could glow because it's some cold (temp) red neon light. Or it could glow because it's my laser beam, wizards spell or whatever where no real physical mapping exists. We have lights so in theory we could just replace all emmisive materials of neon lights and scifi effects with real (expensive) lights. It was cheaper to just fake the illusion of light. Now it seems every emmisive material is doomed to be white-ish. Emmisive colors with bloom are gone. Just the bloom remains in color but the materials itself are whiten out (and way too fast).

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                    #39
                    Elemental Demo is 5 years old. It's not really fair to use content that is hand tuned to look good when engine was totally different beast.

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                      #40
                      Originally posted by Kalle-H View Post
                      Elemental Demo is 5 years old. It's not really fair to use content that is hand tuned to look good when engine was totally different beast.
                      Fair? - The goal is not a beauty competition in a lava-demo (as this issue happens at many other materials that uses emmisive as well) but finally finding a solution to work with the new tonemapper. This is no PS vs Xbox thread. If somebody could shed some light in how to hand tune the emmisives of the 4.11 screenshot it would ge great. I've tried to get the lava in the 4.15 to the 4.11 screenshot. But it's either complete without any bloom or way too much white. And it seems red or orange is better than other emmisives like green or blue. Multiplying the emmisive input of the lava material * 0.1 in 4.15 brings similar red and yellow spots ... but the yellow is still too much and too less saturated the bloom is gone (almost complete) and there are too much dark spots already as well (because it's getting < 1 values for sure).

                      4.11 - Would get this:
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                      4.15 - Makes this:
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                      4.15 - tried to make it red again via multiplying the emmsivie 0.1 which made it more red, killed the bloom and still left too much yellow:
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                        #41
                        ... So it looks like it's not possible to achieve stylized effects like these with the new tonemapper. Which is sad, because a lot of stylized work is being done with UE, and completely cutting it off after 4.15 is somewhat a harmful move

                        We could really use some kind of tonemapper switch or a separate glow-amount input (not driven by emissive) in materials, something that [MENTION=606]Luos[/MENTION] has suggested.
                        Here is how it looks from my perspective: I just can't make my effects the same as before, to make them work properly with my stylized art style. Knowing that the old tonemapper will be removed in future versions... It puts me in a dead end. And I know that I'm not alone with that situation.

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                          #42
                          Have you tried using the post processing settings? They're quite robust, and I could easily imagine getting those old effects by just tweaking some of the sliders. For instance, clamp down the highlights to some lower brightness, and increase the saturation and bloom. That should give you your colorful lava back.

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                            #43
                            Originally posted by Wilkes View Post
                            Have you tried using the post processing settings? They're quite robust, and I could easily imagine getting those old effects by just tweaking some of the sliders. For instance, clamp down the highlights to some lower brightness, and increase the saturation and bloom. That should give you your colorful lava back.
                            I know what I am going to say is rather duh, but well.. here goes

                            "That might change the appearance of other content in that scene in a way thats not liked"

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                              #44
                              Originally posted by Wilkes View Post
                              increase the saturation and bloom
                              Makes a scene that looks a bit like drunken or with too much light. Even stuff that should not bloom casts some bloom afterwards. Sky would be terrible. Its like fighting against the tonemapper. If the new tonemapper gets standard I hope there would be a way to work with it instead to work against it.

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                                #45
                                You're right. I'm not sure why Epic doesn't just include the old tonemapper as an option. As far as I know, it's still possible to switch back to it, so why not just leave that possibility open?

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