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    #76
    Originally posted by NilsonLima View Post

    What was terminated is the developer account used to publish Fortnite on iOS/Mac, the other accounts are on a different party id, so Unreal Engine won't be affected... for now.
    As I understand it, yes, the developer tools for the "Epic Games" account were deleted so the "company" can't publish software for iOS and Mac. This software would also include Twinmotion and Unreal Engine (the GUI app) for Mac, no? Since both are published by Epic, wouldn't both apps also be lost in the battle?

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      #77
      Originally posted by rexmaximilian View Post

      As I understand it, yes, the developer tools for the "Epic Games" account were deleted so the "company" can't publish software for iOS and Mac. This software would also include Twinmotion and Unreal Engine (the GUI app) for Mac, no? Since both are published by Epic, wouldn't both apps also be lost in the battle?
      So far, there are different accounts, each one paying Apple's development fee, and the one which rights were revoked is the one used to publish Fortnite. The account publishing Fortnite refers a company established in US while the other referring to Unreal Engine is established in Sweden. So far, Epic Games has around 10 subsidiaries distributed over the world, so those can't be considered the same party in regards of contract acceptance. Another point is that there is a contract which rules the Apple Store and another contract that rules the Development tools, and the contract and rules which were broken were about the Apple Store. Also, the judge restrained Apple to do any move to harm Epic and their subsidiaries in regards to the development tools, but they were still allowed to have Fortnite pulled out from the store and act (there could be some technicalities on the decision made by Apple) accordingly the contract rules regarding the Apple Store.

      The video mentioned some posts above is part of a the series of videos containing all the legal details regarding the process from the beginning and up to now.
      Nilson Lima
      Technical Director @ Rigel Studios Ltda - twitter: @RigelStudios
      Join us at Discord: https://discord.gg/FUwTvzr

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        #78
        Originally posted by rexmaximilian View Post

        As I understand it, yes, the developer tools for the "Epic Games" account were deleted so the "company" can't publish software for iOS and Mac. This software would also include Twinmotion and Unreal Engine (the GUI app) for Mac, no? Since both are published by Epic, wouldn't both apps also be lost in the battle?
        This is not a great summation. I guess we need another clarification.

        Epic Games own Fortnite. Fortnite was pulled from the app store and the developer accounts associated with it closed.

        Epic International, a different company, own Unreal Engine. Their developer account was also disabled, so they can't generate new signing keys (which is required periodically) or end-to-end test the iOS publishing workflow (which is already pretty rough around the edges). This gets in the way of future iOS support, but as we all know they could quietly make another account and keep going.

        There's a lot more we can speculate on (Mac going to ARM and unifying their app store doubles down on the anti-trust, future of iOS on UE, etc) but the most relevant part right now is that Epic International has been granted an injunction reversing Apple's actions against them.

        For me the biggest concern was "would Epic continue to support the Apple ecosystem if they couldn't publish on it themselves" and the conclusion I reached is that the work has already been done, the money invested and teams exist to support it. It might not get any better, but it'll keep being supported the way it has been.

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          #79
          As far is relevant to everyone concerned about the continuity of support, few things need to be considered, because Apple can't ban Unreal Engine platform for development of games, that would be firing on their own foot. Since the UE4 source code is available to everyone, any other party could take the responsibility to maintain a UE4 branch supporting iOS if they have a license agreement with Apple development tools and none can't even tell that this other party can still be Epic under the hood, provided they take precautions

          Now, if Apple is ever willing to ban any application made with Unreal, regardless who owns the account used to make the engine work with iOS tools, than this I am sure will favor the antitrust case, and really this is something that if Apple takes action, they might be prepared for instant injunction by any judge involved on the matter.

          So far, I know lots of people who abandoned their Apple devices to have the ability to play the game, another amount shifted for playing on PCs, and about the same amount just not playing anymore, so I guess each group is 33% so far (from only the people I know).
          Last edited by NilsonLima; 08-31-2020, 08:28 AM.
          Nilson Lima
          Technical Director @ Rigel Studios Ltda - twitter: @RigelStudios
          Join us at Discord: https://discord.gg/FUwTvzr

          UE4 Marketplace: Cloudscape Seasons
          supporting: Community FREE Ocean plugin

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            #80
            Originally posted by NilsonLima View Post
            Now, if Apple is ever willing to ban any application made with Unreal
            I'll always be slightly concerned that Apple could sunset everything using an interpreted code framework. They started out not wanting non-Apple frameworks on their store and that's the way it was for a long time. UE doesn't technically run interpreted code, but the aim would be to remove other frameworks from their marketplace. They probably won't while there's a lot of products using Unity and UE on the app store, but if Apple ever get their **** together enough to make their own game engine then I'd start getting my plan B together. That's the thing I'm always watching out for.

            The unification of their mobile and desktop platforms mean this is more possible than ever. Epic has just managed to give them another grievance to add to the list of "dumb reasons Apple do ****."

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              #81
              Originally posted by Antidamage View Post

              I'll always be slightly concerned that Apple could sunset everything using an interpreted code framework.
              I feel both companies came out looking very bad and has shaken confidence in the people who deal with each of them. Epic for going about it as they did in the first place, and Apple for seriously overreaching in their response.

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                #82
                Originally posted by Antidamage View Post

                This is not a great summation. I guess we need another clarification.

                Epic Games own Fortnite. Fortnite was pulled from the app store and the developer accounts associated with it closed.

                Epic International, a different company, own Unreal Engine. Their developer account was also disabled, so they can't generate new signing keys (which is required periodically) or end-to-end test the iOS publishing workflow (which is already pretty rough around the edges). This gets in the way of future iOS support, but as we all know they could quietly make another account and keep going.

                There's a lot more we can speculate on (Mac going to ARM and unifying their app store doubles down on the anti-trust, future of iOS on UE, etc) but the most relevant part right now is that Epic International has been granted an injunction reversing Apple's actions against them.

                For me the biggest concern was "would Epic continue to support the Apple ecosystem if they couldn't publish on it themselves" and the conclusion I reached is that the work has already been done, the money invested and teams exist to support it. It might not get any better, but it'll keep being supported the way it has been.
                It does seem everything is at risk though, at least for the moment. What Epic has done, though, is gotten the court, with the temporary restraining order, to now have issued ruling consistent with the argument that Apple is "too big", as it viewed severing the Unreal Engine piece at this immediate time could harm the public good. This restraining order will be reviewed by the court in a month (9-28-2020). Now, keep in mind, also, that the same judge who made this ruling also is already currently hearing a separate case involving another app developer, who has a little earlier filed a case claiming Apple is a monopoly (Cameron v Apple)...so, this other case's momentum either will give legs or shunt back Epic's case.

                So, imagine if the court agrees with claim by other app developer, and continues to renew the restraining order. This will mean Apple might feel pressured to settle with the parties, likely reducing the 30%. However, imagine if the court does not agree with the other app developer, and does not continue to enforce the restraining order involving Unreal Engine. Bye bye iOS?...

                BUT - In any event, there could be appeals, and talks, cases dragging on, and on, and on, settlement talks....public sentiment momentum will play a role, etc....so a lot does appear at risk.
                And with great risk could come great reward.

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                  #83
                  Totally separate, I wonder how much support Epic will give Apple integrations if in fact Apple and Epic break....ie - iOS ARKit and the iPad/iPhone camera-controller thing
                  Because, Epic would encourage the purchase of Apple devices if in fact the Apple iOS ARKit and iPad controller remains a part of UE4 / UE5.
                  That's like a (1) "use UE + iOS together" pro-Apple marketing campaign existing in direct conflict with (2) anti-Apple marketing campaign message of the recent Fortnite add.

                  Thus, to further take a stance, might Epic abandon support?​I don't want this to happen, but it is inherently contradictory.

                  As well, I wonder if internally all Apple products are going to be abandoned for Epic workplace staff? Macs, iPhones, iPads, iWatch....
                  Are they still going to be on display at Epic events and Web classes, etc.
                  What kind of message does that convey that you are anti-Apple but then shown supporting Apple products simultaneously...
                  I guess a mixed one....eh, what else is new, right?
                  We are like kids watching our parents going through a divorce.

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                    #84
                    Originally posted by Daffrendo View Post
                    Totally separate, I wonder how much support Epic will give Apple integrations if in fact Apple and Epic break....ie - iOS ARKit and the iPad/iPhone camera-controller thing
                    Because, Epic would encourage the purchase of Apple devices if in fact the Apple iOS ARKit and iPad controller remains a part of UE4 / UE5.
                    That's like a (1) "use UE + iOS together" pro-Apple marketing campaign existing in direct conflict with (2) anti-Apple marketing campaign message of the recent Fortnite add.

                    Thus, to further take a stance, might Epic abandon support?​I don't want this to happen, but it is inherently contradictory.

                    As well, I wonder if internally all Apple products are going to be abandoned for Epic workplace staff? Macs, iPhones, iPads, iWatch....
                    Are they still going to be on display at Epic events and Web classes, etc.
                    What kind of message does that convey that you are anti-Apple but then shown supporting Apple products simultaneously...
                    I guess a mixed one....eh, what else is new, right?
                    We are like kids watching our parents going through a divorce.
                    Along those lines I heard Unity is having to do a ton of work to port their Editor to Apple Silicone chips. Not sure if Epic would also have to do a lot of work to get the editor working with the new chips or if it's already been done?

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                      #85
                      I don't understand why Apple, in a recent letter to judge, would claim that ongoing Unreal Engine support on iOS could be used as a Trojan Horse by Epic to implant malware into the iOS ecosystem. It's slanderously speculative #1, but also puts on the table that actually Apple is admitting it is powerless to maintain the health of its own ecosystem. Consider, using Apple's own logic, that if any non-Epic 3rd party were then theoretically be able to do that merely by having developer-access on the iOS platform, it would mean any and all of Apple's arguments, being made in the name of safety, are then unfounded. Because either every developer could do it, or none could....Sounds like an unforced error by Apple.

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                        #86
                        Originally posted by Daffrendo View Post
                        I don't understand why Apple, in a recent letter to judge, would claim that ongoing Unreal Engine support on iOS could be used as a Trojan Horse by Epic to implant malware into the iOS ecosystem. It's slanderously speculative #1, but also puts on the table that actually Apple is admitting it is powerless to maintain the health of its own ecosystem. Consider, using Apple's own logic, that if any non-Epic 3rd party were then theoretically be able to do that merely by having developer-access on the iOS platform, it would mean any and all of Apple's arguments, being made in the name of safety, are then unfounded. Because either every developer could do it, or none could....Sounds like an unforced error by Apple.
                        That is a good point. I thought that was a strange comment by Apple also. Any app can just auto download malware a month after it's been approved or whatever, you don't need Unreal Engine for that. Really though much of this is just Apples way of going on the offensive and giving themselves leverage. At bottom they absolutely positively do not want to be forced to change the app store business model by the courts.

                        It's pretty clear though that Apple is willing to opt out of the future of the gaming industry. If Google Stadia, Xcloud and all Unreal Engine games really are banned from iOS moving forward then Apple is going off on their own even more then usual.
                        Last edited by Allenheathx; 09-18-2020, 02:13 PM.

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                          #87
                          I agree with Daffrendo and Allenheathx. That affirmation would be in the eyes of any judge, speculative, but they just gave ammo for Epic attorneys to say that the reviewing process just can't do anything for the health of Apple Store, but it is nothing more than a way to guarantee the applications will indeed pay to them commissions when it is the case.

                          Nothing can prove more that their reviewing process does not guarantee malicious code can be found in this article: https://www.theregister.com/2020/08/...1200_ios_apps/
                          Nilson Lima
                          Technical Director @ Rigel Studios Ltda - twitter: @RigelStudios
                          Join us at Discord: https://discord.gg/FUwTvzr

                          UE4 Marketplace: Cloudscape Seasons
                          supporting: Community FREE Ocean plugin

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                            #88
                            Yes to Allenheathx and NilsonLima. Another thought is that as Apple is itself claiming that it is subject to malware intrusions, this natively gives reason for developers to enact back-up and redundancy safety measures of their own, to ensure and facilitate ongoing operation of their app-to-customer interface (ie - an Epic Store component for Fortnite on iOS ensures customer service redundancy).

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                              #89
                              For what it's worth, we immediately saw the writing on the wall, and started migrating our current project back to Unity, which in retrospect was 100% the right decision to make for this project, Epic/Apple battle aside. We're now further ahead in Unity than we were in Unreal, and it was surprising how adaptable our code was. Some of our classes were just line-by-line adaptations to C# syntax. Some things were rewritten from scratch where the thinking in the engines was too different.

                              Basically, our reasoning was that this Apple/Epic battle won't end for a long time. Even in the best case, there will be bad blood, and Epic and Apple won't work together. The risk of Epic walking away from iOS/Mac is not zero the way we perceive it to be with Unity (they're already compiling for Apple Silicon). Were that to happen, our entire investment would be lost, and we'd have to start over. We're making the choice to start over now, to remove that risk.

                              We've paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to Apple in App Store fees, and we resent the fees as much as the next guy. But Epic's case is weak, legally speaking. More, we deeply resent that Epic was willing take this risk on our behalf to possibly waste our entire investment. That's unforgivable to us, like a pilot threatening to crash a plane and then saying "just kidding". The fact that Epic went there just a little bit was a total dealbreaker for us. We find Epic irresponsible to their customers -- us. Epic was willing to sacrifice our livelihoods for their cause. We can't unsee that.

                              What else? We're twice as productive in Unity. The API is much cleaner, and we have a ton of features in Unity that we were having to implement ourselves in Unreal (2D, Playables API in particular). And I personally like coding in C# much more. C++ has become OK, I guess. But it's so verbose, and such a grammar-nazi. You almost can't see the code for all the syntax.

                              We're happy with our choice, and we're also happy to have spent the time in Unreal, mostly to learn that the grass isn't as green as we thought. And Unity has publicly committed to mending the biggest blunder they've made, the fragmentation of their URP and HDRP render pipelines. This was what forced us to move to Unreal in the first place.

                              For what it's worth.

                              Per

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                                #90
                                Originally posted by Per Holmes View Post
                                C++ has become OK, I guess. But it's so verbose, and such a grammar-nazi. You almost can't see the code for all the syntax.
                                You're not alone in thinking that... For years Sweeney @ Epic has been selling the myth that UE4-C++ is as easy as Scripting. But he's since recanted and is willing to offer scripting finally. Overall, I would put the difficulty level of C++ at double that of C#. And when it comes to making games, simplicity is key...


                                Originally posted by Per Holmes View Post
                                Epic's case is weak, legally speaking.
                                Is 20 billion Fortnite hubris at work here??? Maybe... But the fact is - Epic aren't acting alone. They're just the front-line crusader in a long war! Anti-trust will be the big ticket item in tech for the next decade. Lawmakers / regulators move painfully slowly, but change is coming and this fight will be used as a test case to string Apple up. After all, how can they keep justifying a ban on side-loading, yet turn a blind eye to malware... But this isn't just about Apple, Big-Tech Reality-Distortion-Field politics is coming under ever more scrutiny...
                                Last edited by UnrealEnterprise; 09-23-2020, 08:32 AM.

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