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Apple and Epic and you, the megathread

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    #46
    If neither Epic nor Apple budge on this then Google is lined up to be the major winner in this thing. Google would LOVE to tout the next generation of Android as the exclusive phone for gamers. They will have all unreal engine made content and all cloud gaming services (as far as I understand that includes all xbox one games) on Android exclusively. It's true Apple is the big dog in this fight but they could seriously screw themselves here. They could effectively ban the future of the gaming industry if they don't play their cards right. As big as apple is, the game industry isn't going to buy a $600 phone that can't even stream their favorite games once that becomes a norm.
    Last edited by Allenheathx; 08-20-2020, 05:50 PM.

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      #47
      Just thinking about this, if apple can just stay in their bubble, what is to stop android from being able to lock up their market like apple and say you can only use the google play store, no more sideloading and such. Even windows could switch to only buying software from windows store at 30% markup.

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        #48
        Originally posted by RudeCoffee View Post
        what is to stop android from being able to lock up their market like apple and say you can only use the google play store, no more sideloading and such. Even windows could switch to only buying software from windows store at 30% markup.
        ^This^ has to be a real danger. Its only antitrust in front page news that's stopping it.


        Originally posted by RudeCoffee View Post
        Even windows could switch to only buying software from windows store at 30% markup.
        Don't even... Thankfully there's been stronger push-back to Windows-Store & UWP.
        Yet Microsoft are far higher on the consumer trust scale than the others. How is that?
        Last edited by UnrealEnterprise; 08-20-2020, 08:25 PM.

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          #49
          Microsoft only gave up on their plans to be like Apple because Azure services make them the bigger bucks now.
          | Savior | USQLite | FSM | Object Pool | Sound Occlusion | Property Transfer | Magic Nodes | MORE |

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            #50
            Well, my latest app was approved today in app store. I hope not just for a week

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              #51
              Originally posted by spacegojira View Post

              The EU is not on Epics side. If anything, they will go down hard on microtransactions in the near future, and then Epic will lose a huge chunk of their income (Fortnite) AND this while battle with Apple will have been for nothing.

              Remember, this is about Epic getting a bigger percentage from the microtransaction prices through Apple devices.
              They most assuredly are on Epic's side both in regards to monopolies and microtransactions. Epic and Fortnite are their template for what paid content should be - you want it, you buy it. No gambling aspect, no winning loot boxes aspect, you just pay for the thing you want. And regardless of any of that, law doesn't operate on emotive views like that. The law doesn't like or dislike a company.

              The key thing to remember is that whether Apple is a monopoly or not largely depends on legal specifics, but the EU is capable of making law in order to force Apple to behave better even if it's slipping through the cracks. The only problem with that is it'll take a decade and we'll all be dealing with a new monopolistic player then.

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                #52
                In short, this is morale to use more open platforms that cannot lock out of devtools and sideloading is possible always without issues. Apple iOS & OSX design is good but are so locked in.
                tox.chat - Skype alternative, fast C/C++, no bloat.

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by Antidamage View Post

                  They most assuredly are on Epic's side both in regards to monopolies and microtransactions. Epic and Fortnite are their template for what paid content should be - you want it, you buy it. No gambling aspect, no winning loot boxes aspect, you just pay for the thing you want. And regardless of any of that, law doesn't operate on emotive views like that. The law doesn't like or dislike a company.

                  The key thing to remember is that whether Apple is a monopoly or not largely depends on legal specifics, but the EU is capable of making law in order to force Apple to behave better even if it's slipping through the cracks. The only problem with that is it'll take a decade and we'll all be dealing with a new monopolistic player then.
                  Wrong, they are absolutely NOT on Epics side. Epic had to defend itself last year when being questioned by the UK parliament: https://www.businessinsider.com/fort...e-harry-2019-6

                  While this is in the UK, the EU will eventually follow up on this (as memberstates are currently in the process of enacting legislative models restricting microtransactions, e.g. Belgium recently) and issue a EU-wide restriction for microtransactions in general, considering how often underage kids spend hundreds to thousands of Euro on it, which would defacto end Fortnites current business model. It just takes time, like every new EU wide policy.

                  Epic Fortnite microtransactions are no different to loot-boxes, with their "rotating offers", encouraging players to buy an item while it's available, using a psychological trick - just like loot-boxes do.

                  Epic is in no way a template for paid content, don't be silly, they had lootboxes themselve not long ago.
                  Last edited by spacegojira; 08-21-2020, 07:59 AM.

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                    #54
                    Originally posted by spacegojira View Post

                    Wrong, they are absolutely NOT on Epics side. Epic had to defend itself last year when being questioned by the UK parliament: https://www.businessinsider.com/fort...e-harry-2019-6

                    While this is in the UK, the EU will eventually follow up on this (as memberstates are currently in the process of enacting legislative models restricting microtransactions, e.g. Belgium recently) and issue a EU-wide restriction for microtransactions in general, considering how often underage kids spend hundreds to thousands of Euro on it, which would defacto end Fortnites current business model. It just takes time, like every new EU wide policy.

                    Epic Fortnite microtransactions are no different to loot-boxes, with their "rotating offers", encouraging players to buy an item while it's available, using a psychological trick - just like loot-boxes do.

                    Epic is in no way a template for paid content, don't be silly, they had lootboxes themselve not long ago.
                    So you think the EU is against people buying and receiving goods and services? Are you going to be the one to tell everyone under 18 that they can no longer buy anything because they're "children"?

                    The level of communistic authoritarian in this is just insane. Equally so that you think it'll happen. Nobody follows stupid laws, if they even get that far. Just look at Apple who effectively do whatever they want and tell lawmakers to keep up. Very rarely other consumer drivers can make a difference, such as what might happen in this case, but the state just follows what the people want. That is the weight of consumer choice. Your ideals are going to get bulldozed.

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                      #55
                      Because of this, we've now decided to switch back to Unity. We lose some months of work, but it is what it is. Some points:

                      * I had forgotten how professional Unity is compared to Unreal. Clean API, great docs, lots of features Unreal doesn't have, cloud build, cloud crash reporting, clean and succinct C#, no more hacky hot-reloading and editor crashes. It's so much more developer friendly.

                      * The only thing that brought us to Unreal was the ability to scale from low-end mobile to high-end desktop in the same project -- a must for us. Unity has now committed to targeting URP and HDRP from the same project for 2021.1. We're two years from release, so we're fine.

                      * If Epic hadn't threatened the future of Unreal on iOS/Mac (markets we must be in), we might not have realized that Unity was actually better for us, and using Unreal was just chasing shiny things.

                      * I'm weirdly productive in Unity compared to Unreal.

                      In the end, we just couldn't stomach how Epic was willing to throw us under the bus. If there's even a 1% chance that Unreal might not be on iOS/Mac for the long haul, we can't make this investment.

                      So... thanks?

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                        #56
                        Originally posted by Antidamage View Post
                        The level of communistic authoritarian in this is just insane.
                        Before you are throwing around words you don't understand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

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                          #57
                          Originally posted by Per Holmes View Post
                          Because of this, we've now decided to switch back to Unity. We lose some months of work, but it is what it is. Some points:

                          ...
                          Sorry to hear your trouble. I hope the transition will work well for you in the end.

                          It really sucks how Epic management, out of greed for more profits from microtransactions in the Apple store, is willing to throw devs like you under the bus, just to make a point. It also sucks how this decision is affecting negatively the great Unreal Engine 4 development team & all the free contributors, working hard to bring out new features.

                          If there is some hope and this lawyer firm will have their predictions to be true, then Epic will likely go back to the App Store under the old terms very soon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZkX3pG8biQ

                          Though I can understand you can't take that risk.

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                            #58
                            Originally posted by Per Holmes View Post
                            If there's even a 1% chance that Unreal might not be on iOS/Mac for the long haul, we can't make this investment.
                            I dont care what you do but there is more then a 1% chance that some problem or another will derail what your doing regardless of what device, platform or toolkit you use. The probability Apple doesnt accept your app on grounds unrelated to unity or unreal is way higher then 1%. For all you know apple wont be accepting indie app store submissions at all by the time your done. Thats why it would be nice if phones were treated like normal computers opposed to walled gardens dictated by a single entity.
                            Last edited by Allenheathx; 08-23-2020, 05:03 AM.

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                              #59
                              Originally posted by Allenheathx View Post

                              I dont care what you do but there is more then a 1% chance that some problem or another will derail what your doing regardless of what device, platform or toolkit you use. The probability Apple doesnt accept your app on grounds unrelated to unity or unreal is way higher then 1%. For all you know apple wont be accepting indie app store submissions at all by the time your done. Thats why it would be nice if phones were treated like normal computers opposed to walled gardens dictated by a single entity.
                              No, because all of those problems can be dealt with. Apple not accepting an app can be worked with. Compatibility issues can be dealt with by lowering the level of ambition or changing the spec. But the framework not existing at all can't be negotiated with.

                              Having now spent a few days as a returning Unity user, I gotta say, I'm pretty blown away by how far Unity has come in just the half year since we left. The grass was always greener over on the Unreal side. But I see now that I was partly just dazzled by things that are relatively trivial.

                              The change in feeling now is mostly drastically lowered stress, and this is not about the platform future. I have had a nagging stress about how catastrophically under-documented Unreal is, and how it's really so much a one-size fits all that nobody bothered to explain anything. The DLC system is almost completely undocumented. I managed to make a streaming installation system for Unreal entirely by looking at their source code, which has Fortnite namespaces in it (classy porting!). In Unity, it's just documented, here's how you do it, done. It's like this ALL THE TIME in Unreal. It's weird to be in an editor that doesn't crash every 2 minutes, and where your class constructors don't randomly run while you use the editor. There is a rogue feeling in Unreal, and in Unity, everything just feels much more under control.

                              I'm completely aware of the qualities Unreal brings, and where Unity is catching up. But my private feeling is increasingly that Unity is the cooler engine and doesn't get the credit for it. Just my personal feeling, having now finally gained some expertise in both engines.

                              For us the choice is made. It's not just the Epic thing, this merely triggered us to be more realistic about chasing glimmer, versus chasing what we actually need for this project.

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                                #60
                                good luck to ya

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