Apple and Epic and you, the megathread

[Antidamage]

As I understand it, yes, the developer tools for the "Epic Games" account were deleted so the "company" can't publish software for iOS and Mac. This software would also include Twinmotion and Unreal Engine (the GUI app) for Mac, no? Since both are published by Epic, wouldn't both apps also be lost in the battle?

This is not a great summation. I guess we need another clarification.

Epic Games own Fortnite. Fortnite was pulled from the app store and the developer accounts associated with it closed.

Epic International, a different company, own Unreal Engine. Their developer account was also disabled, so they can't generate new signing keys (which is required periodically) or end-to-end test the iOS publishing workflow (which is already pretty rough around the edges). This gets in the way of future iOS support, but as we all know they could quietly make another account and keep going.

There's a lot more we can speculate on (Mac going to ARM and unifying their app store doubles down on the anti-trust, future of iOS on UE, etc) but the most relevant part right now is that Epic International has been granted an injunction reversing Apple's actions against them.

For me the biggest concern was "would Epic continue to support the Apple ecosystem if they couldn't publish on it themselves" and the conclusion I reached is that the work has already been done, the money invested and teams exist to support it. It might not get any better, but it'll keep being supported the way it has been.

[NilsonLima]

As I understand it, yes, the developer tools for the "Epic Games" account were deleted so the "company" can't publish software for iOS and Mac. This software would also include Twinmotion and Unreal Engine (the GUI app) for Mac, no? Since both are published by Epic, wouldn't both apps also be lost in the battle?

So far, there are different accounts, each one paying Apple's development fee, and the one which rights were revoked is the one used to publish Fortnite. The account publishing Fortnite refers a company established in US while the other referring to Unreal Engine is established in Sweden. So far, Epic Games has around 10 subsidiaries distributed over the world, so those can't be considered the same party in regards of contract acceptance. Another point is that there is a contract which rules the Apple Store and another contract that rules the Development tools, and the contract and rules which were broken were about the Apple Store. Also, the judge restrained Apple to do any move to harm Epic and their subsidiaries in regards to the development tools, but they were still allowed to have Fortnite pulled out from the store and act (there could be some technicalities on the decision made by Apple) accordingly the contract rules regarding the Apple Store.

The video mentioned some posts above is part of a the series of videos containing all the legal details regarding the process from the beginning and up to now.

[rexmaximilian]

What was terminated is the developer account used to publish Fortnite on iOS/Mac, the other accounts are on a different party id, so Unreal Engine won't be affected... for now.

As I understand it, yes, the developer tools for the "Epic Games" account were deleted so the "company" can't publish software for iOS and Mac. This software would also include Twinmotion and Unreal Engine (the GUI app) for Mac, no? Since both are published by Epic, wouldn't both apps also be lost in the battle?

[NilsonLima]

NilsonLima


Its worse than that. I don't know about Brazil, but in many parts of the world, its not just 30%, its 30% plus another 30% for FORCED US withholding tax. After factoring dev costs, you're lucky to come away with 30% in the end! If cost of living is a fraction of the US, then maybe ok, but otherwise its unworkable!

Basically is the same all over the world.

[NilsonLima]

So now that Apple has deleted the Epic Developer account, does this mean they can no longer provide, or even work on updates for Unreal Engine and Twinmotion for Mac?

What was terminated is the developer account used to publish Fortnite on iOS/Mac, the other accounts are on a different party id, so Unreal Engine won't be affected... for now.

[rexmaximilian]

So now that Apple has deleted the Epic Developer account, does this mean they can no longer provide, or even work on updates for Unreal Engine and Twinmotion for Mac?

[UnrealEnterprise]

NilsonLima

30% is way too much, think how much work is to have an app developed, tested, and someone will easily grab 30% of your sales for the effort of maintaining a "app store"? I doubt they have a mathematician or a physics doctorate employee working on their side to have that "app store" running... These are another despicable facts imo.

Its worse than that. I don't know about Brazil, but in many parts of the world, its not just 30%, its 30% plus another 30% for FORCED US withholding tax. After factoring dev costs, you're lucky to come away with 30% in the end! If cost of living is a fraction of the US, then maybe ok, but otherwise its unworkable!

[Daffrendo]

What do we want?
#FreeFortnite
When do we want it - NOW
If we don't get FreeFortnite
BURN IT DOWN (...w/Niagara Particles)

Very impressed with Epic's Integrity, it takes a lot of conviction to take a stand like this.

[NilsonLima]

There are several things I don't like about the whole subject. I can't agree on Epic doing the move on Fortnite to suddenly put an option to make Apple receive 0% from a purchase, but on the other hand I agree that it should be possible to have other payment options, because 30% is too much and the way it is nothing would stop Apple in the future to raise that much for like 50% or 70%... they could if they wanted and this sort of move is possible because they monopolize the payment option. When you have business as big as Epic has, a good governance dictates how contracts with other parties should be to grant less risk to the company, then investors can rest assured that if a company follows basic guidelines it is a safe bet. Would you put your money in a company which has a contract with another company that could at any time be responsible for cutting more than 30% from your products? Wouldn't you expect to have this value at least fixed forever or negotiable down after some time the product is on the store? Again, by those contracts nothing would stop Apple on increasing those 30% to 50% or even more.

Nevertheless, 30% is way too much, think how much work is to have an app developed, tested, and someone will easily grab 30% of your sales for the effort of maintaining a "app store"? I doubt they have a mathematician or a physics doctorate employee working on their side to have that "app store" running... These are another despicable facts imo.

[spacegojira]

Apple just said they were going to ban UE to set the bar high so when they met half way they would be back to where they started (Fortnite's banning). If they wouldn't of mention UE then the focus would be purely on Fortnite and meeting halfway could have been fortnite stays on store with the new purchase option but at the same rate as the apple purchase rate (or something like that).

This. Apple can afford to not have Fortnite on their store, they have so so much more money than Epic has. Epic on the other hand can not afford it, much more if their shareholders (especially Tencent) pressure them about the loss of profits.

This is a win for Apple, and a loss for Epic, who was aiming to get Fortnite back on the Apple store but without having to pay the 30% share for their microtransactions (Epic wanted 0%).

[Antidamage]

Injunction partially granted: https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/...64265.48.0.pdf

Here's one of those details we don't usually consider: Epic International are the ones who provide iOS support in UE, not Epic Games. The injunction seems to have been granted partially on the basis that Epic International is an affiliate.

It looks promising.

[Allenheathx]

Returning to topic

Apple was ordered to allow Unreal Engine made games to be released on their platform but Fortnite will stay off the market (for now).

https://techcrunch.com/2020/08/24/ap...off-app-store/

“The record shows potential significant damage to both the Unreal Engine platform itself, and to the gaming industry generally, including on both third-party developers and gamers,” she said, adding that even as Epic Games violated App Store’s guidelines, it did not breach any contracts related to Unreal Engine and developer tools."

"Epic Games claimed last week that developers were already leaving Unreal Engine as uncertainty loomed over its future on Apple ecosystem."

Apple just said they were going to ban UE to set the bar high so when they met half way they would be back to where they started (Fortnite's banning). If they wouldn't of mention UE then the focus would be purely on Fortnite and meeting halfway could have been fortnite stays on store with the new purchase option but at the same rate as the apple purchase rate (or something like that).

[hedgie17]

Returning to topic

Apple was ordered to allow Unreal Engine made games to be released on their platform but Fortnite will stay off the market (for now).

https://techcrunch.com/2020/08/24/ap...off-app-store/

“The record shows potential significant damage to both the Unreal Engine platform itself, and to the gaming industry generally, including on both third-party developers and gamers,” she said, adding that even as Epic Games violated App Store’s guidelines, it did not breach any contracts related to Unreal Engine and developer tools."

"Epic Games claimed last week that developers were already leaving Unreal Engine as uncertainty loomed over its future on Apple ecosystem."

[Dev.Leo]

Because of this, we've now decided to switch back to Unity. We lose some months of work, but it is what it is. Some points:

* I had forgotten how professional Unity is compared to Unreal. Clean API, great docs, lots of features Unreal doesn't have, cloud build, cloud crash reporting, clean and succinct C#, no more hacky hot-reloading and editor crashes. It's so much more developer friendly.

* The only thing that brought us to Unreal was the ability to scale from low-end mobile to high-end desktop in the same project -- a must for us. Unity has now committed to targeting URP and HDRP from the same project for 2021.1. We're two years from release, so we're fine.

* If Epic hadn't threatened the future of Unreal on iOS/Mac (markets we must be in), we might not have realized that Unity was actually better for us, and using Unreal was just chasing shiny things.

* I'm weirdly productive in Unity compared to Unreal.

In the end, we just couldn't stomach how Epic was willing to throw us under the bus. If there's even a 1% chance that Unreal might not be on iOS/Mac for the long haul, we can't make this investment.

So... thanks?

Oh, my god!

I am thinking the same thing as you said.

Once up on a time I was thinking Unreal Engine’s Blueprint is the best mate to meet the shortage of 3D game editor in Xcode for iOS.

I spent years to get into it.

And then they are fighting to each other ...... what a nightmare.

(Unity is busy with IPO now, they are absolutely not interesting in this war, is there any chance to win, why did you start this war?)

[UnrealEnterprise]

Let's stay positive and give our full support to Epic Games.

Looks like banning UE isn't happening anyway (judge has already telegraphed its retaliatory). As regards Fortnite in-app purchases, who knows... Its possible Epic don't care in the short-term anyway. Consider that this whole thing was orchestrated / planned a long time ago (1984 roast). So it was probably done in sync with lobby groups / lawmakers to trigger antitrust law. All they have to do now is show an example of consumers being harmed (Epic willing to charge less versus Apple - even if its all theater). But the part that's still really grating, is that side-loading is bad, but bad security is ok... WTF?