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Apple and Epic and you, the megathread

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    #16
    The monopoly argument is weird because iPhone global market share is around 14%. iOS is not a public need like water, electricity and such. They can do with their product whatever they want. iPhone buyers want this closed platform with curation and security without bloatware.

    Did you know that Epic controls 100% of Unreal Engine? Shocking, i know.
    For small Devs like us, we are again a leaf in the wind. At the mercy of bug fixes and neglected frameworks (AR). Epic gives and Epic takes away.
    We wanted to release on iOS end of this year and now are screwed.

    Fortnite kids do not know the original apple ad from 1984. This is for media and really funny. People who thinks this is hateful don't get the joke, perhaps because they don't know the original apple ad. Epic is now very prominent in mainstream news. Free publicity. Preparing a stock market launch? Pure speculation.

    Why not spend some of their dev grants and team up with partners to support an open source alternative OS (Firefox OS, Ubuntu Touch and others no one ever heard of).

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      #17
      Originally posted by NobbigvonL View Post
      The monopoly argument is weird because iPhone global market share is around 14%. iOS is not a public need like water, electricity and such.
      Not in the market of hardware, but in the market of software certainly. They control who gets to publish the apps, and as you can see, also who gets access to development resources for the platform. And while it's not a neccessity for living, it is a neccessity for business for a lot of companies, or at least a large share of their revenue. That gives Apple massive leverage.

      You don't need to use Unreal Engine. It's one of many tools out there. But if you want to develop an app for iPhones, you either work with Apple or you make some sort of side-loaded niche app, which most users won't have access to. And even on Android, if you're not on Play store, most users probably won't bother. Your audience will be very limited

      Remember when Microsoft wanted to get into the mobile OS market? That didn't work even with their resources. Now they did make some mistakes, for sure, but they did identify their biggest weakness right away, which was access to applications, originally developed for other platforms. They tried to fix it with various grants and programs for developers, very generous ones. It never really worked.

      They can do with their product whatever they want
      I think ultimately the issue here is that they control the product AFTER you buy it, by ensuring it can't be repaired or changed and that you don't have full control over it.

      We wanted to release on iOS end of this year and now are screwed.
      I think there might be hope for you, as big companies generally don't like loosing money. And blocking Unreal Engine means loosing money for them. So ultimately it might all be just a show, and they will quietly come to some sort of agreement or at least Apple will loosen it's embargo.

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        #18
        Originally posted by NobbigvonL View Post
        Fortnite kids do not know the original apple ad from 1984. This is for media and really funny. People who thinks this is hateful don't get the joke, perhaps because they don't know the original apple ad.
        I know of the original Apple "1984" ad that was targeting Microsoft. As someone who knows the original 1984, this was never funny. It wasn't when Apple did it, nor when Epic did it now.
        And if it's just for the media, why not publish it solely on their Twitter? Why play it in Fortnite, with an audience of mostly 12- 15 years old kids?

        This was intentional to rile up the young Fortnite user base against Apple, and that is just despicable.

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          #19
          Originally posted by spacegojira View Post
          I know of the original Apple "1984" ad that was targeting Microsoft.
          IBM. Windows didn't even exist in 1984.

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            #20
            CNN had a 5 minutes report on this.
            They explained the 30% cut and said Tinder + Spotify have both joined Epic against Apple..
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              #21
              Originally posted by ambershee View Post

              IBM. Windows didn't even exist in 1984.
              You are of course correct.

              Doesn't make it any less despicable.

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                #22
                Originally posted by BrUnO XaVIeR View Post
                CNN had a 5 minutes report on this.
                They explained the 30% cut and said Tinder + Spotify have both joined Epic against Apple..
                ...because Spotify are world-renowned for the generosity and don't require people to listen to over 30,000 hours of music to pay out $100...

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                  #23
                  Welp, I spent a few thousand dollars just so I could work with Apple products on my first indie game release. The first half of the year was me making my game without an existing game engine using html5. It was coming along fine but the limitations were creeping. I switched to Unreal for the other half thinking it would be great, it has been and I genuinely enjoy it. But now this hurts. I hope that this ends quick because not being able to release to iOS will be annoying but if Epic does win, it's a win for all of us even developers not involved with Epic. Apple has always been exclusive, it's in the brand and why a few people obsess to buy the name at a premium.

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                    #24
                    I was just trying to port one of my games from a epic mega jam to macos the other day for a friend to play. I don't own a mac, but was trying to run their os. Turns out they don't support nvidia driver's anymore, which is all I own (what os doesn't have nvidia drivers?), so that is not an option. Honestly, with their reputation, if they want to stay in their bubble, they should be allowed to (but I like the publicity that this is getting), just know the world will pass them by.

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                      #25
                      Really disappointed in Epic and Apple. Just bought a new Mac and called them today to return it so I can buy a PC. I don't have the luxury to wait around while they quibble. Artists and developers are just road kill to both companies. Maybe I should get out a pencil and paper and revert to hand drawing. Thinking of dumping all my Apple devices, they've just become monsters.

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                        #26
                        Gentlemen, synchronize your death watches.


                        The monopoly argument is weird because iPhone global market share is around 14%

                        That's not relevant to the fact that a quick Google search shows Apple has a ~45.2% percent of the smartphone market share in the United States. Monopoly is a monopoly, regardless of whether it is water, or electricity. While it is Apple's hardware, they've had the App Store of over 10 years and grown HUGE. Like 500 pound women huge. Spotify's allegations that Apple Music has unfair advantage over Spotify is considerable. Nevertheless, lets take a look at what FTC has to say about anti-competitive practices.


                        https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/anti...tive-practices


                        The FTC generally pursues anticompetitive conduct as violations of Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act, which bans “unfair methods of competition” and “unfair or deceptive acts or practices.”


                        Now Apple terminating all future support for Ue4? I think that is a bit unfair to both Epic and the developers who depend on Ue4 to ship to IOS products. Its worth noting that terms of service related arguments fall flat if courts don't find the terms of service legal.

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                          #27
                          Not affected in the slightest.
                          Originally disliked Apple products for being overpriced.
                          Later as their products got locked down, content was wrapped in DRM etc, I was glad I did.

                          Fast forward to the current situation, and I can sit here on my high horse knowing the blame lies with those that have been, and continue to buy, from Apple.
                          To cut my own horse down a little, I am typing this on a machine running Windows 10
                          Rule#21: Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by LordLytonn View Post
                            I think it's worth noting how Tim Cook recently denied, before US Congress, ever retaliating against developers for complaining about their App Store fees, and said it's against their company culture. Apple's time has finally come, with their monopolistic practices, recent reports (talking about ASPI report here) about use of forced labor in Apple products, and their disposable devices, hopefully US government will finally do something about them.

                            One thing that the legal system didn't catch up with was how companies started to own the market and means for communication. What Apple just did shows how they can destroy your business with a single decision, because you dared to oppose them. This should have never been possible.
                            This is interesting, because there are posts on Hacker News right now from developers who have been continuously punished by Apple. One guy has had seven apps in seven different categories wiped out for essentially being successful.

                            Imagine the anti-trust suits in the 90s if Microsoft had also made the hardware.

                            Anyway, now that everything's a bit calmer and we've had time to think, the thing we're probably most interested in is: will Epic keep supporting iOS if they can't release their own games on the iOS app store?

                            Developer accounts schmeloper accounts. They can still maintain it. But will they? That's essentially the number one concern we all have right now. Fortnite has been a huge driver of continued iOS support in UE4. I love the hardware and the simplicity and security of the platform about as much as I hate Apple's other practices. And despite that environment iOS support in UE4 has been a little bit limited.

                            Can anyone from Epic speculate on this please? It'd be a good thing to let us know as soon as possible and probably head off some panic.
                            Last edited by Antidamage; 08-19-2020, 03:31 AM.

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                              #29
                              In case anyone is interested, here's the injunction: https://cdn2.unrealengine.com/epic-v...-768927327.pdf

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Apple locked Epic out of their dev tools (probably mostly just signing and Testflight) which effectively halts future iOS and MacOS support in UE.
                                What tools? What Epic Account's have anything to do with SDK licences? They lock Epic Game's tools (profiles, accounts they sign apps). This should only effect Epic games. We still get access IOS as we have own use licences and own accounts.

                                Apple also seem to be saying that they'll detect UE apps during the app store approval process and block them.
                                When did they say this? It looks like illegal move, I do not think they will block UE games. Moreover, we already signed by licences with Epic and Apple, so you are able to use what you've already signed for. They are not able to take what you use right now by a licence.

                                Can anyone proove anything, that can stop us from releasing a game on iOS?
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