Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Aaaagh! This is so painful!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Originally posted by William K View Post

    I get were you are coming from, But this is not a subjective matter. It is a hard established factual mistake clearly made and later somewhat admitted by the blender lead decision makers themselves.
    Nobody at the Blender foundation has ever said or even suggested that their decision to do things differently was a mistake. Their decision to change the UI in 2.8 is an act of friendliness and inclusiveness to try to make the software appeal to more people - not an admission of a prior mistake.

    I flat out disagree with that opinion.

    Originally posted by William K View Post
    In comes in Blender in early 2000's, with the only opensource software to have the potential to really make a difference! Takes one good look at the established norm and decides to go full 180 against the tide for no reason I could think of other than autism, in doing so it alienates most established professionals to even consider it.
    The Blender devs decided to go a different route with their UI, because they didn't want to be sheep, and felt they could do it better a different way. All power to them. I'm so glad they did, and showed the world that the traditional Maya / Max GUI is not the only way to make a 3D Software UI.

    Originally posted by William K View Post
    Zbrush is another software designed by autistic developers, it was never meant to be a 3d sculpting tool either, it started off as some weird 2d splash gadget that looked like a freeware from the late 90's:
    Gee dude, calling developers Autistic cos they don't do things the way you like / want / or think they should...

    Comment


      #17
      Look. Personally i don't like Maya or Max for a ton of reasons - far too many for me to list here.

      And I especially dislike their UIs - probably because they are totally different from Blender, and I'm a Blender user for a long time.

      But at least I have the humility and respect to recognise - that my preference for Blenders UI is just that - a User Preference.

      Its not a Fact, that Blender's UI is better than Max or Mayas - or vice versa.

      A lot of it has to do with habit, and what we are used to. I'm used to Blender so i like that. You guys are used to Maya / Max - so you like that.

      Why can't you see that it's just an opinion / a User Preference - and not a fact at all.

      Originally posted by William K View Post

      So let me get this straight, you are able to tolerate Blender's UI but have trouble in UE4?
      And going around saying that another software is ****, or talking about it in a negative and derogatory tone - because you don't personally like it, is bigoted. Can't you see that?

      Some people like Coffee, some people like Tea. They are both good - they both have their flaws - but they are both good in their own way.

      Why does it have to be that one is better than the other - can't they just be different?




      Last edited by DyotoOrion; 08-12-2019, 05:23 PM.

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by DyotoOrion View Post

        So what you're saying is is I've been wasting my time using Blender, and I should really be using Max or Maya - cos yeah they are just better...

        Are you aware that there are 3D Professionals working all over the world using Blender - And yes even 2.79 - so its not like its just become a thing since 2.8. Even some of the guys at Epic are using Blender- and I know plenty of 3D Artists at game companies who use Blender. So yeah all these guys were just wasting their time.

        Some people like Blenders UI and find it faster, more intuitive and easier to use than Max / Maya. - I happen to be one of these people.

        Your opinion that Blender's UI is messy and a waste time is just wrong - in my opinion!

        Please don't confuse opinion with facts. Not everyone has the same workflow as you.
        It is not a personal opinion. It is a fact.

        It is like saying that you are using a tv set that has a clunky messed up beyond weird and almost unusable UI and remote control completely different to the standard ones and that along with a bunch of other customers that got those products you think to be right and that the manufacturer is better than anyone else and that must be the real standard because you get so passionate thinking that that is better and that's it. While 99.99% of the population wouldn't get it and they aren't faster at changing channels so you think.
        Or .. a manufacturer started giving away for free thousands if not millions of really weird looking mouses with such an odd shape that even with two hands it would be really hard to move and press its hundreds of tiny buttons and to even draw a single straight line with it on screen pressing eight buttons was required along with moving the mouse both horizontally and vertically because the manufacturer thought it was smart to add full gyro sensors and programmed the input device like no one else... So 99.99% of the population would keep using a usual mouse input device even with some small changes in shape so all using the same workflow but you and few others would think that that is not the correct way to do it... But unless humans turned into some sort of squids with dozens of hands and fingers and so on ... the mouse was designed with humans in mind and for humans. That can't be changed. And designing a better input device would require some smart thinking and analysis of how the human body works. You can't just design whatever input device no matter the shape and expect humans to be able to use it properly and with the same ease as that.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by DyotoOrion View Post
          Look. Personally i don't like Maya or Max for a ton of reasons - far too many for me to list here.

          And I especially dislike their UIs - probably because they are totally different from Blender, and I'm a Blender user for a long time.

          But at least I have the humility and respect to recognise - that my preference for Blenders UI is just that - a User Preference.

          Its not a Fact, that Blender's UI is better than Max or Mayas - or vice versa.

          A lot of it has to do with habit, and what we are used to. I'm used to Blender so i like that. You guys are used to Maya / Max - so you like that.

          Why can't you see that it's just an opinion / a User Preference - and not a fact at all.



          And going around saying that another software is ****, or talking about it in a negative and derogatory tone - because you don't personally like it, is bigoted. Can't you see that?
          I can only see a childish attitude here instead.
          You are trying to negate basic facts about how the human brain works and reacts to UIs.
          Did you know that UIs are designed following some standard guidelines? OR at least that is what developers should always think about when designing any UI for any software. UNFORTUNATELY there are many cases in the industry of developers not following standards properly and/or doing some terrible mistakes damaging products quality and usability in the process no matter how good then the underlying algorithms making the software would really be.
          You can design the best software in any field... being it a professional engineering software or the best game ever made technically wise with outstanding features BUT if the UI is a huge mess and make the product almost unusable or requiring a very long time to memorize and become productive with it (or being able to play a game without getting stuck and unable to go any further) THEN you would be in big trouble. Your business would easily collapse because the few customers you might manage to get would not be really happy and you being in need to expand the user base to get money or funding would end up having to re-work everything UI related and maybe even forced to discontinue the product, change the name and re-sell it as another product to make people forget about the previous failure and accept a re-designed UI still with the same algorithms as before.

          Comment


            #20
            DarkS474 - While I agree with some of the things you've said about a UI needing to work and be functional. Sadly, I still don't agree over all.

            Why don't we simplify things with a thought experiment to get to the crux of the matter.

            You think the Max / Maya UI is the better designed.

            I think the Blender UI is better designed.

            Which one of us right?

            Comment


              #21
              Just found this on the Blender Artists Facebook page. Have a read:

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by DyotoOrion View Post
                Just found this on the Blender Artists Facebook page. Have a read:
                And that would be proof of what exactly?
                A few thinking the same as you don't make the industry in any field or as a whole.
                Blender itself has been changed to avoid the messed up UI it had and it will keep changing a lot now that they got some serious funding/donations by big companies/corporations. They will have to in order to get really serious in the business and avoid being kept to a tiny user base.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by DarkS474 View Post

                  And that would be proof of what exactly?
                  A few thinking the same as you don't make the industry in any field or as a whole.
                  Blender itself has been changed to avoid the messed up UI it had and it will keep changing a lot now that they got some serious funding/donations by big companies/corporations. They will have to in order to get really serious in the business and avoid being kept to a tiny user base.
                  Sigh..........

                  Comment


                    #24
                    While in life depending on merit i am usually with: the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many, but when it comes to tools, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

                    This is again about blender leads saying, aha we are smarter than the 99 percent out there and we are going to do something different. Well congrats. Now they are reaping it to my great regret because i want blender to thrive.

                    ​​​Also you Dont try to be smart with user interfaces that already work you try to be smart with functionality, guess priorities were all messed up.

                    when andrew price asked about this in 2013 on cgsociety he got more than 20 pages of people telling him to fix the ui on the largest most respected cg forum at the time on the planet.

                    ​​​​​he went back and thought about it all the while being told by some of his colleagues to ignore these people!

                    he caved in for a while until later they realized that they need to do something about it.

                    i mean blender had right click instead of left click as its core function for crying outloud not even apple dared to do this! At least those guys gave you one button instead of two becauae they are apecial.

                    its not about me it is not about you, fact is this, you want blender to grow and reach to serve its core audience of users? Then fix this and stop beating around the bush, with all the funding coming their way now they have little excuse from the finiancial side.

                    it is going to be difficult and it will clash with existing users.




                    Comment


                      #25
                      Hey William K

                      Thanks for your honest reply.

                      I'll try and explain - what I see as the problem here as plainly and clearly as possible.

                      i'm a Blender user fo 12 years, maybe 13. I think I picked it up first in 2006. For years I was just a hobbyist, messing around with Blender and what not. Then in 2013, I decided to make it my job and become a full time 3D Artist as a career. For the last 5 years, I've been doing 3D Art as a full time profession.

                      I love Blender - it's one of the best things thats happened to me in my life - literally!

                      And i absolutely love Blenders User interface - 2.79 - and have developed a very solid workflow over the last 5 years for creating 3D Game Assets. I work in Blender every day, and use it between 4 and 14 hours every day. For me the User interface, is intuitive, fast, logical, clean, easy to use - does exactly what is intended.

                      After a few years of using Blender full time, I have completely forgotten about the UI. It's become like my living room, I know where everytjing is, i know all the shortcuts. I feel completely at home with it.

                      So when I see some guy - in this case you Wiliam K - coming on the forum, and discouraging a newbie by telling him that Blenders UI is awful...

                      Then I just think to myself "Blah, Gee, Gah - does this guy really use Blenders UI? Do you really know it? Or did you just pick it up for 5 minutes - decide you didn't like it and throw it away.

                      If you did fine - no problem - different tricks for different sticks.

                      But i love Blenders UI - really love it - so how is it that you and I can have such opposite opinions? After all, we are both humans right - with 2 eyes and 10 fingers.

                      What I don't respect is people talking about something I love and enjoy everyday in a casual and derogatory way, like it's a piece of throw away trash.

                      Do you understand how such Rhetoric looks from my point of view - as a long term Blender user, and someone who genuinely likes the UI?

                      I respect my fellow 3D Artists, and I respect your opinion.

                      But really what gives you the right to come along - and - no offence - spout your half ***** and discouraging opinion to a newbie who is learning Blender?

                      I think such talk is prejudiced, negative, and unproductive.

                      I think Blender's UI is awesome and a lot of other people do too - so what really makes your negative opinion of Blenders UI more valid than my positive one?

                      Truth be told - nothing.

                      It's just an opinion mate. Just a User Preference.

                      I personally dislike Maya and Max's UI, and well everything about those softwares. But you don't see my jumping up in every Maya / Max user thread going "OMFG you use Max / Maya - those programs have awful UIs" cos I think such talk is negative and counter productive to enjoyment and learning.

                      I don't understand what gives some people the priviledge to go around being negative about something - they probably don't know that well, and discouraging other learners from using it.

                      I think that's negative behaviour. I don't respect it. Sorry.

                      Regardless of which UI is better.

                      Just respect other people's workflows dude.

                      And honestly, Blender being different from Max / Maya is not about the Blender Devs "Trying to be clever" its about them doing their best in the way they see it. And honestly, you don't have the right to tell them that they are wrong about it.

                      Just because people do stuff different from you - does not mean they are wrong or bad - it just means they are different.

                      And no - they don't have an obligation to do it "Your Way" because that's what your used to. They have an oblgation to themselves to do it they way they want to.

                      As Blender Cookie says:

                      Create Yourt Own Way.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Blender Devs don't owe Max / Maya users anything, and Blender Users Do Not have an obligation to learn your workflow, or your UI.

                        If you wanna learn Blender - why dont yyou learn Blender's UI, instead of expected Blenders UI to fit into your workflow

                        You wanna learn Blender, you learn Blender's way of doing things. Not the other way round.
                        Last edited by DyotoOrion; 08-13-2019, 05:08 AM.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          I went from Max to Maya to Blender. Every transition was acompanied by quite a few "wtf" and "why" in relation with both the workflow and the UI. However, after just a couple a days, everything became natural and intuitive. All its required is to open ones mind and really try it. That's it.

                          Didn't we all learned and accept doing things the "unreal way"?

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by DyotoOrion View Post
                            Blender Devs don't owe Max / Maya users anything, and Blender Users Do Not have an obligation to learn your workflow, or your UI.

                            If you wanna learn Blender - why dont yyou learn Blender's UI, instead of expected Blenders UI to fit into your workflow

                            You wanna learn Blender, you learn Blender's way of doing things. Not the other way round.
                            If I really have to one day, I will sit down and learn blender to make it my default tool, I've learnt harder **** in my life. But you are missing the point here, nobody is arguing blender itself as a tool is unintuitive, the argument is on the interface alone. These are two different things.

                            Whether you agree with me or not and whether if i want to use blender or not, the fact remains when you look at it from a pure fishing and marketing perspective that the overwhelming majority of 3d artists in this field using the overwhelmingly established tool set will find it "Harder" to integrate into Blender especially before version 2.8 than in relative terms they would to integrate into Maya or Houdini, or Cinem4d or Softimage (whoever still uses it) for that matter.

                            I am saying the ONLY good 3d open source program out there, let us call it the PEOPLE's software, the redeemer, the savior! all of that away from huge money thirsty corporations has or had decided in its infinite wisdom to bring forth an Extra, unneeded, uncalled for barrier by making the UI "relatively" more difficult to use than any other established workflow or software out there.

                            The small example I gave you, the tiny small example to start with, and I don't mean this with disrespect or anything take it as a figure of speech:

                            What kind of a Dev sits down, takes one long hard look around the PC, windows, Linux culture, and tells himself, today I am going to make a free 3d software for all to use, at which point he comes to the most logical conclusion after a long hard thoughtful day: " Everyone on this planet uses the left mouse button on all these software and operating systems so what if I am innovative and so I will do the exact opposite, I am going to start by making the right mouse button the default button in my software! there you go now lets move on to the next thing!"

                            I can totally imagine a scenario like that happening .

                            Decisions like those really **** me off. How about you keep the wheel a wheel and start worrying about the engine instead, borrow the established workflow even steal the interfaces people are familiar with and help make that transition a little smoother, life is already ticking on those seconds, I and many other don't want to get used to blender's navigation while switching back and forth between software for another 2 years before assuming final transition to blender.

                            No matter how you look at it I am criticizing the decisions the leads made on that front, and they admit it they know they made that "mistake", I am not the first one pointing it out, but importantly we can act like adults and not get ****** off about why i'm pointing this out.

                            I told you guys I want to see blender thrive, but in order for that to happen faster and smoother they still have things to address on this front.

                            I think we should end this here frankly.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by Samuel Brunner View Post
                              Yep, just look how bad dev are looking, do you really wan't to become a fat nerd, siting at a desk for the whole day, having only virtual friends, and when you die just thinking how much time you lost on virtual and sensless things.
                              Haha, totally agree!
                              But sometimes I feel that I really need to do something in Unreal.
                              At that time I just sit and do it...

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X