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Unreal has a problem now, and it is not the engine.

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    #16
    Originally posted by William K View Post

    Another Andy Serkis talking head 2.0

    Meanwhile we are still waiting for some basic features to be implemented so we wont have to suffer.... Oh look Unity has had them since forever I guess now i need to hire another engineer to implement those...

    Meanwhile Forward rendering mode has stagnated in development more of my budget gone on even more engineers.... Unity has that covered too...

    Meanwhile the only saving grace we have for UE are BP's.... Unity catching up on this in a year I wonder if we will still be here by then with not so empty pockets...

    But who cares about making games lets get another "photo realistic" girl model running on a 10K rig to showcase what we can do with scans and SSS!
    I keep telling people - the biggest mistake Epic made was advertise UE4 as an engine that small studios or indie developers can work on. Rare exceptions aside - it's not. It's a very heavy-weight enterprise engine that requires a lot of knowledge of its inner workings and a lot of dedicated staff to maintain your codebase. Unless it's something like Tappy Bird, you're not going to get very far with UE4 in the real world.

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      #17
      Originally posted by DamirH View Post

      I keep telling people - the biggest mistake Epic made was advertise UE4 as an engine that small studios or indie developers can work on. Rare exceptions aside - it's not. It's a very heavy-weight enterprise engine that requires a lot of knowledge of its inner workings and a lot of dedicated staff to maintain your codebase. Unless it's something like Tappy Bird, you're not going to get very far with UE4 in the real world.
      Doesn't unity require a lot of knowledge of its inner workings and the codebase is hard to maintain as your project grows?

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        #18
        Originally posted by ptcmia View Post

        Doesn't unity require a lot of knowledge of its inner workings and the codebase is hard to maintain as your project grows?
        I think the same can realistically be said of *any* game project of reasonable scale, regardless of the platform.

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          #19
          90+% of Unity users will never reach that scale since they make "small mobile games" with tiny levels to render.
          For the other 10%... Well take a look at their 2019~2020 roadmap.

          It's going to be a completely different engine from the Unity of 2~3 years ago, they're basically building their own Unreal Engine at least on the most core things (but animation tools are still going to suck there).

          Looks like the experts they've hired are building a custom COMPILER with support to a custom subset of C# that's going to generate machine code for multiple target platforms... That custom C# compiler will make possible to write C# as fast as C++ without the crashes you would get when you make mistakes in C++.. Quite impressive.

          Right now, everything is compiled to C++ to generate machine code, but their compiler is simply going to skip that step.
          If they ever deliver such a thing plus the visual scripting tool that generates C# code (no virtual machine running) and those things actually WORK... Well I would be very worried if I were in EpicGames' shoes (or I would just focus more on Fortnite and give up worrying about this stuff lol)
          | Finite State Machine | Auto-Save Plugin | USQLite Plugin | Object-Pool Plugin | Sound-Occlusion Plugin | Anti-Cheat Plugin | Property Transfer Tool |

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            #20
            Originally posted by BrUnO XaVIeR View Post
            90+% of Unity users will never reach that scale since they make "small mobile games" with tiny levels to render.
            For the other 10%... Well take a look at their 2019~2020 roadmap.

            It's going to be a completely different engine from the Unity of 2~3 years ago, they're basically building their own Unreal Engine at least on the most core things (but animation tools are still going to suck there).

            Looks like the experts they've hired are building a custom COMPILER with support to a custom subset of C# that's going to generate machine code for multiple target platforms... That custom C# compiler will make possible to write C# as fast as C++ without the crashes you would get when you make mistakes in C++.. Quite impressive.

            Right now, everything is compiled to C++ to generate machine code, but their compiler is simply going to skip that step.
            If they ever deliver such a thing plus the visual scripting tool that generates C# code (no virtual machine running) and those things actually WORK... Well I would be very worried if I were in EpicGames' shoes (or I would just focus more on Fortnite and give up worrying about this stuff lol)
            I am still learning how to code so I don't fully understand everything but are the entity component system and jobs system part of that?

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              #21
              Originally posted by ptcmia View Post

              I am still learning how to code so I don't fully understand everything but are the entity component system and jobs system part of that?
              Yes, but those are highly incomplete.
              Maybe when they have physics and skeletal meshes rendering in ECS, that "pure ecs" thingy might become usable. If they don't rush to ship a broken tool, I don't think they can get that out of experimental stage before the end of this dev cycle (i.e: you develop a whole game in few years and when you're done that is going to be experimental still).
              | Finite State Machine | Auto-Save Plugin | USQLite Plugin | Object-Pool Plugin | Sound-Occlusion Plugin | Anti-Cheat Plugin | Property Transfer Tool |

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                #22
                Definitely use two different sites, forums and answer hub, fragment the community.

                But the worst thing is that answer hub is a horrible site with an awful User experience design that frightens the desire to help.

                I hope they block that monstrosity and everything comes back here.

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by DamirH View Post

                  I keep telling people - the biggest mistake Epic made was advertise UE4 as an engine that small studios or indie developers can work on. Rare exceptions aside - it's not. It's a very heavy-weight enterprise engine that requires a lot of knowledge of its inner workings and a lot of dedicated staff to maintain your codebase. Unless it's something like Tappy Bird, you're not going to get very far with UE4 in the real world.

                  Here's the thing, I have no illusions whatsoever that when something is worth paying for, that I need and I MUST pay for it! However If an engine as "Big" and as "misadvertised" as UE4 which will take up to 10% of my cut at some point is going to tell me that:

                  - In order to have root motion you must use "character class" regardless of how much of its features you don't require and good luck changing anything in C++ trying to implement root motion in actor or pawn classes because UE tells you so!
                  You don't like using the performance heavy class for the basics good luck paying for it- meanwhile Unity doesn't care - hence basics

                  - In order to get any projections or modulate mode shades in forward rendering you need to hire god knows who dedicated to again create some magic through C++ that is if it works because it is not mentioned or said that it may and might just end up as a severe engine limitation - meanwhile Unity and other engines this simply works regardless because its Basics!
                  In other words you can't ever leave modulate projected decals when a unit explodes on screen and smears a surface with dark debris, Something all games have been doing forever since the 90's, but you can't here. PBR didn't exist back then either!

                  - You can't use morph targets with skinned cloth! shocker!

                  - Widgets: Just discovered yesterday that I can't do glowing text- Glowing text!! now I need to write my own custom BP HUD and material systems for it with lots of math just create interactive numbers on screen in order just to have that glow!

                  There's a point in time when you don't need to hire someone in 2019 in order to rediscover fire for you, Creating a game already involves astronomical amount of work for a small team or a large one, I don't want to worry about the fact if the engine i'm using can do shadows or not figuratively speaking, if you put the light it should cast shadows and let me worry about optimization and performance but it should cast that shadow!


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                    #24
                    Anyway...
                    From a legal point of view, I absolutely trust EpicGames 100% to never pull on me a stunt like this at least:

                    https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...improbable-ceo

                    Shameful business tactics by Unity Tech right there.
                    | Finite State Machine | Auto-Save Plugin | USQLite Plugin | Object-Pool Plugin | Sound-Occlusion Plugin | Anti-Cheat Plugin | Property Transfer Tool |

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by BrUnO XaVIeR View Post
                      Anyway...
                      From a legal point of view, I absolutely trust EpicGames 100% to never pull on me a stunt like this at least:

                      https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...improbable-ceo

                      Shameful business tactics by Unity Tech right there.
                      It's apparently getting a bit more spicy: https://venturebeat.com/2019/01/10/e...ay-from-unity/

                      Epic has a tons of Fortnite money and is not hesitant to make it apparent. I am absolutely happy for them, given how much they are giving back to the community. It's also their right to attract more users to their own platform.

                      While they don't have any obligation to service the existing community using the engine for free, it would be kinda nice if they could spare let's say at least $25k/year to hire some part time community manager to run around the forums, collect issues, pass them on to the technical epic staff, and perhaps come back with some answers. If there's $25M being spent on potential new users, it'd be kinda nice if the existing forum community could be spent at least 0.01% of that sum on.

                      EDIT: Actually $25k would be 0.001% . 0.01% would cover such part timer for 10 years upfront And if that person would be external employee, living somewhere let's say eastern Europe, $25k/year would end up being actually above average full time salary given that region
                      Last edited by Rawalanche; 01-11-2019, 04:59 AM.
                      https://www.artstation.com/artist/rawalanche

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                        #26
                        What is sad to see, some Unity cultists swear all this situation was engineered by Tim Sweeney and Improbable CEO since beginning and nobody should leave Unity LOL

                        Stockholm syndrome.
                        | Finite State Machine | Auto-Save Plugin | USQLite Plugin | Object-Pool Plugin | Sound-Occlusion Plugin | Anti-Cheat Plugin | Property Transfer Tool |

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                          #27
                          Originally posted by Rawalanche View Post

                          It's apparently getting a bit more spicy: https://venturebeat.com/2019/01/10/e...ay-from-unity/

                          Epic has a tons of Fortnite money and is not hesitant to make it apparent. I am absolutely happy for them, given how much they are giving back to the community. It's also their right to attract more users to their own platform.

                          While they don't have any obligation to service the existing community using the engine for free, it would be kinda nice if they could spare let's say at least $25k/year to hire some part time community manager to run around the forums, collect issues, pass them on to the technical epic staff, and perhaps come back with some answers. If there's $25M being spent on potential new users, it'd be kinda nice if the existing forum community could be spent at least 0.01% of that sum on.

                          EDIT: Actually $25k would be 0.001% . 0.01% would cover such part timer for 10 years upfront And if that person would be external employee, living somewhere let's say eastern Europe, $25k/year would end up being actually above average full time salary given that region
                          Thou is easy to find a competent community manager (I do love ours btw) just for this purpose, it is not easy to find more internal developers with the ability to do what is necessary to fix the engine. You would need to hire and train an entire team of already good developers and this would take at least 2 years to happen, for them to be at same level of the current devs working on the engine (those 2 years might be underestimated!)
                          Nilson Lima
                          Technical Director @ Rigel Studios Ltda - twitter: @RigelStudios
                          Art is a state of Spirit

                          Join us at Discord:
                          https://discord.gg/uFFSEXY
                          UE4 Marketplace:
                          Cloudscape Seasons

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                            #28
                            My $0.02, money talks. If your product is making you money, it's likely making them money. In turn, you'll get a lot more support. I don't disagree with their tactics -- a lot of requests for support are, in a word, ridiculous. Their product has matured, their company is in a great place, and their attention must be devoted to what will help sustain that healthy company revenue. Holding the hands of hobbyists is, unfortunately, not lucrative. That's certainly not to say that all support requests fall into that category, just that in a sea of rudimentary support requests, it's often hard to see the legitimate ones.

                            The engine is available to anyone, and unfortunately that also means people with zero experience are often asking extremely rudimentary questions that have been answered a hundred times at this point. I do agree that the more serious bugs and inquiries should not be taken lightly, but at the same time, it's an open source engine. Want something in the next minor? Great, put in a pull request With that in mind, I have seen some PRs that have not been merged in which I feel should have been by this point. So, that is an area I'd like to see some more attention. If someone is willing to put in the work and put in a PR, it should be taken seriously and merged in, or at a bare minimum comments should be posted as to why it is not being merged.
                            Last edited by One Mode Only; 01-11-2019, 11:16 AM.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by NilsonLima View Post

                              Thou is easy to find a competent community manager (I do love ours btw) just for this purpose, it is not easy to find more internal developers with the ability to do what is necessary to fix the engine. You would need to hire and train an entire team of already good developers and this would take at least 2 years to happen, for them to be at same level of the current devs working on the engine (those 2 years might be underestimated!)
                              I didn't exactly mean bug fixers. I just meant some kind of "forum community manager". A person, who would be paid to check forums for any questions that meet the following criteria:
                              1, Are not yet answered with a solution
                              2, Are well and politely worded
                              3, Are questions about something non trivial, which can not be easily and conveniently found in documentation

                              Such person would them make short summaries of these questions, and pass them on to some developers, who would get to those questions IF they have a few moments to spare, and would answer some of them.

                              The forum community manager would then return to the threads with the answers, or at least some acknowledgement/status report in case the question was about an issue/bug.

                              It's not as much about bugs, but more about that there's a lot of obscure knowledge about UE that's condensed among Epic staff and doesn't make it out of the company. For example check older threads where Ryan Brucks used to respond. Many of his posts pretty much shaped workflows of users for many years to come, and were a great benefit to the community which last to this day. Imagine how much more great knowledge and workflows would there be, if Ryan contributed to the forums to this day. Or at least someone would be passing his advice on here
                              Last edited by Rawalanche; 01-11-2019, 03:03 PM.
                              https://www.artstation.com/artist/rawalanche

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by Rawalanche View Post

                                I didn't exactly mean bug fixers. I just meant some kind of "forum community manager". A person, who would be paid to check forums for any questions that meet the following criteria:
                                1, Are not yet answered with a solution
                                2, Are well and politely worded
                                3, Are questions about something non trivial, which can not be easily and conveniently found in documentation

                                Such person would them make short summaries of these questions, and pass them on to some developers, who would get to those questions IF they have a few moments to spare, and would answer some of them.

                                The forum community manager would then return to the threads with the answers, or at least some acknowledgement/status report in case the question was about an issue/bug.

                                It's not as much about bugs, but more about that there's a lot of obscure knowledge about UE that's condensed among Epic staff and doesn't make it out of the company. For example check older threads where Ryan Brucks used to respond. Many of his posts pretty much shaped workflows of users for many years to come, and were a great benefit to the community which lacks to this day. Imagine how much more great knowledge and workflows would there be, if Ryan contributed to the forums to this day. Or at least someone would be passing his advice on here
                                I did get your point previously, I am the one of several that takes some time out of the day to answer questions at the forums for a number of topics, some are really pure knowledge on how to do stuff, but others points on engine issues, which would be nice to have people with in-depth engine knowledge to answer, which won't happen because they of course need to focus on stuff which will bring money (which we all agree, everyone wants).
                                Nilson Lima
                                Technical Director @ Rigel Studios Ltda - twitter: @RigelStudios
                                Art is a state of Spirit

                                Join us at Discord:
                                https://discord.gg/uFFSEXY
                                UE4 Marketplace:
                                Cloudscape Seasons

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